Confused - Need The Experts on Model 36

[Crookedcreek]

Most of the 'J' frames I've seen have been round butts. I have an opportunity on a square butt Model 36 no dash, 2" pinned barrel, serrated front ramp. My confusion lies in the 'no dash' and the year made. The Google 'A.I. Expert' says the first 36-1 was made in 1967. When I called S&W Customer Service, I was told S.N. 855J60 was made and shipped in 1982. I have not yet had the gun in hand, but the photos that were sent to me clearly show it is square butt, clear S.N. on grip frame bottom, and only 'Mod.36' on the crane. It comes with original stocks, plus Altamont Super Rosewood checkered Fleur-de-lis, and a nice brown leather holster (don't know make). I could be off in my thinking, but seems like 15 years (minimum!) is a long time for a 'no dash' frame to show up from 'left over inventory' with a 1982 serial number....what am I missing? What should I consider a fair price before I make a decision to 'act'? Condition from photos looks pretty good, but I'll have to hold it to know for sure.

P.S.(Edit): Don't know for sure, as the photos sent to me don't show a good 'side view', but it appears that the hammer spur may have been shortened, trimmed, docked, whatever the appropriate term. It certainly looks different and shorter than 'normal'.

 

[Crookedcreek]

Did a lot more research since posting. I now know the answer, albeit somewhat of a mystery in itself, so I no longer need or expect any input.

 

[JP@AK]

Crookedcreek​

Given your second post, you probably know this by now, but just to confirm:
The Model 36 not followed by a dash number lasted until 1988. Yours probably shipped in 1972, possibly 1973 (in the "roving J" period).
The 2" Chiefs Special was made in both round and square butt.

 

[MetalMan]

I have this square butt Model 36 with an “ACH” prefix which dates to 1983…

(Need to take some better photos…)

 

[Crookedcreek]

Crookedcreek​

Given your second post, you probably know this by now, but just to confirm:
The Model 36 not followed by a dash number lasted until 1988. Yours probably shipped in 1972, possibly 1973 (in the "roving J" period).
The 2" Chiefs Special was made in both round and square butt.

Well, here is what my 'research' uncovered. Smith Customer Service told me that Model 36 serial number (855J60) shipped in 1982 (right or wrong). Research says only the 3" bull barrel model 36's received the -1 and -2 designations, never on the standard weigh snub nose (2"). On the 'snub' barrel, the dashes started with 36-3. For all I know, that could all be a bunch of 'hooey', but it does 'explain' the 'missing' 15 year time frame. Now, if Customer Service was wrong on the 1982 ship date , and you are correct with the 1972-73 ship years based on the 'roving J', then I am back to being confused! That also says one would never find a 2" light barrel 36-1 or -2....is that your understanding/belief?

P.S. (edit): I have not yet been back to the shop to hold and inspect the gun.

 

[two-bit cowboy]

Reliable research is dependent upon your source(s).

Your sources (including Smith & Wesson customer service) failed you. It's not uncommon.

Smith & Wesson assigned the Model 36 identifier on June 12, 1957. The first Chiefs Specials with the Model 36 added to the name shipped in September 1958. The model came with either a 2" or 3" barrel.

The New York Police Department asked Smith & Wesson to make a Chiefs Special with a 3" Heavy Barrel in the mid 1960s. The first known 3" Heavy Barrel Chiefs Special Model 36-1s shipped in September 1966. The company continued to produce Chiefs with the 3" lightweight barrel until about 1976 when it discontinued the 3" lightweight barrel on carbon steel Chiefs (I guess it's too obvious the Chiefs Special Airweight Model 37 (aluminum alloy frame) continued to use the lightweight barrel. After several ownership changes (1965, 1984, and 1987) the company made an engineering change in 1988 that resulted in the 2" Model 36-2 and 3" Model 36-3.

 

[Crookedcreek]

Reliable research is dependent upon your source(s).

Your sources (including Smith & Wesson customer service) failed you. It's not uncommon.

Don't ask why I'm not surprised, that is why I put apostrophes around the word research! Unfortunately, most of my [apparently erroneous] information came from old threads on this forum, so much for taking something as the Gospel.
What you have explained is very enlightening and helpful. But, I'm still left with the 'make date' for that S.N., do you agree that 1972, -73 is the realistic time period? As I said, I have not handled the gun, nor seen the original stocks (they have them), since all I saw were the Altamonts sticking out of the brown leather holster.
Are you saying that any 36 shipped from Sept. 1966 onward would have at the minimum a -1....obviously I'm still confused.

P.S. (Edit): Should the Magna stocks (once I can see them) have diamonds, or were they already discontinued (A.O.1968?)?

 

[JP@AK]

Smith Customer Service told me that Model 36 serial number (855J60) shipped in 1982 (right or wrong).

As they so often are, Customer Service is completely wrong about that. All of the 1982 serial numbers had one digit before the J and five digits after the J, for a total of six digits. Your "roving J" number has only 5 total digits and 3 of them in front of the J.

Research says only the 3" bull barrel model 36's received the -1 and -2 designations, never on the standard weigh snub nose (2"). On the 'snub' barrel, the dashes started with 36-3. For all I know, that could all be a bunch of 'hooey'

It is "hooey."
The 36-1, by definition, had a 3" heavy barrel. See Bob's note above.
The 36-2 did NOT have the heavy barrel. It had the tapered barrel, the same as the Model 36. The -2, in fact, was the replacement for the Model 36 in 1988. The barrel on the Model 36 (tapered barrel) was available in 2" or 3" until 1976, when the 3" barrel was discontinued.
The dash 3 was the replacement for the Model 36-1, again in 1988.

it does 'explain' the 'missing' 15 year time frame. Now, if Customer Service was wrong on the 1982 ship date, and you are correct with the 1972-73 ship years based on the 'roving J', then I am back to being confused! That also says one would never find a 2" light barrel 36-1 or -2....is that your understanding/belief?

There is no "missing" 15 year period.
Yes. You will never find a 2" tapered barrel on a Model 36-1.
But you will find a 2" tapered barrel on the Model 36-2. In fact, that is all you would find on it, since the -2 was released after 1976.

 

[Crookedcreek]

Thanks Jack, eventually my head will stop spinning! So, is the one I'm looking at considered 'desirable', or are they in the 'dime a dozen' category? I understand condition is critical to the $worth. Does the S.N. 'J' location three digits fore, two digits aft confirm the '72, '73 make date?

 

[jcelect]

Here are the variations of the mod 36. Top 3" heavy barrel, Middle 3" standard barrel, Third row 2" guns, Bottom 2" Chief's Special Target, and there were 213 3"HB Chief's Special Targets made!

jcelect

 

[Crookedcreek]

Nice collection and very informative...I'll eventually 'LEARN'!
Still looking for confirmation of year made for 855J20 and whether or not it is a 'desirable' gun....would you buy it and for how much?

 

[JP@AK]

Still looking for confirmation of year made for 855J20 and whether or not it is a 'desirable' gun....would you buy it and for how much?

The SCSW shows the "roving J" numbers as 1971-1972. However, our CS expert, Bob T., has demonstrated that they started shipping in 1970 and lasted until 1973 (ship dates). Hence, yours clearly falls into the later part of that period.

A Chiefs Special from the 1970s in good or better condition is, indeed, a desirable revolver, assuming you like small frame .38 Special units. Many of us do. Price decisions are entirely personal.

Here is a picture of one of mine. Model 36 from 1964; square butt, 2" barrel.

https://smith-wessonforum.com/media/mod-36-1964.11755/full

 

[Crookedcreek]

A Chiefs Special from the 1970s in good or better condition is, indeed, a desirable revolver, assuming you like small frame .38 Special units. Many of us do. Price decisions are entirely personal.

Thank you Sir, Small frames are fine by me, I now have a 3" Model 60 and a 637-2 Airweight. I might get by the LGS today to handle and take a close look at this one.

 

[two-bit cowboy]

Jack and Joe have provided some terrific information. Based on others in the database, I would imagine Smith & Wesson shipped 855J20 in the first half of 1973.

The roving J series contained a maximum of five numbers plus the J. When you consider the roving J serial numbers with three digits before the J, you have to remember Smith & Wesson only produced 99 of each with a three-digit prefix. So the database shows Chiefs with 618Jxx through 999J68 shipped in the first half of 1973.

Here is 999J68, which Smith & Wesson shipped to Zale Corporation in Texas on April 11, 1973.



Does your 3" Model 60 have an R prefix with five digit following it or does it have a three letter AEV prefix with four digits? Either way, a very nice example of an oddball Model 60.

 

[two-bit cowboy]

Don't ask why I'm not surprised, that is why I put apostrophes around the word research! Unfortunately, most of my [apparently erroneous] information came from old threads on this forum, so much for taking something as the Gospel.
What you have explained is very enlightening and helpful. But, I'm still left with the 'make date' for that S.N., do you agree that 1972, -73 is the realistic time period? As I said, I have not handled the gun, nor seen the original stocks (they have them), since all I saw were the Altamonts sticking out of the brown leather holster.
Are you saying that any 36 shipped from Sept. 1966 onward would have at the minimum a -1....obviously I'm still confused.

P.S. (Edit): Should the Magna stocks (once I can see them) have diamonds, or were they already discontinued (A.O.1968?)?

Responding to your "P.S.": Smith & Wesson deleted the diamond around the screw and nut escutcheons on most stocks on January 11, 1966. The company never threw anything away so it took more than two years to exhaust the inventory for most models. We begin seeing J-frames with magna stocks sans diamonds in spring '68.

 

[Crookedcreek]

Jack and Joe have provided some terrific information. Based on others in the database, I would imagine Smith & Wesson shipped 855J20 in the first half of 1973.

Does your 3" Model 60 have an R prefix with five digit following it or does it have a three letter AEV prefix with four digits? Either way, a very nice example of an oddball Model 60.

Some photos for your analysis: P.S. I would like some input on my Pre 18 Combat Masterpiece, I'll open a new thread with a number of photos. I'll title the thread "Questions on Pre 18 CM".

P.S. I forgot to ask...what is 'oddball' about it? BTW, I have like 4 sets of stocks for the J frame, the originals were black rubber as I recall.

 

[two-bit cowboy]

Ah, ha, a Model 60-4 Target model. Nothing at all oddball about it. (The serial ranges I mentioned are the oddballs.) Yours likely shipped in 1995/96. Later in 1996 Smith & Wesson replaced the Model 60-4 with the Model 60-10, built on the company's new J-magnum frame and chambered in .357 Magnum.

Yes, the original Model 60-4 grips are Uncle Mike's Combat grips.

 

[Crookedcreek]

Ah, ha, a Model 60-4 Target model. Nothing at all oddball about it. (The serial ranges I mentioned are the oddballs.) Yours likely shipped in 1995/96. Later in 1996 Smith & Wesson replaced the Model 60-4 with the Model 60-10, built on the company's new J-magnum frame and chambered in .357 Magnum.

Yes, the original Model 60-4 grips are Uncle Mike's Combat grips.

I had forgotten, but as you can see on the return paperwork, I had sent it back to Smith for a (?) barrel and cylinder 'problem' and they replaced both. I assume some of the grip frame markings indicate that 'repair'. The photo of the box labels are now under the foam on the inside of the lid. I don't remember doing that, maybe Smith did when they serviced it(?). The label indicates it has a 'Target Hammer'. So, you are saying there is nothing of 'note' on this gun as far as rarity or desirability, if I'm understanding your response. Yes, I do have the original Uncle Mikes combat grips, they are currently residing on my 637-2.

P.S. Is there any significance to the 5361 on the label under 'Spec. Ord.'?

 

[toddimusnimski]

The 60-4 is desirable, no doubt about it. Not rare but not especially common either. Spec Order code 5361 shows that your gun shipped on the 361st day of 1995, good call by two-bit cowboy.

Todd

 

[two-bit cowboy]

So, you are saying there is nothing of 'note' on this gun as far as rarity or desirability, if I'm understanding your response.

No, I didn't suggest the Model 60-4 isn't desirable. It's a coveted model among Chiefs fans, I believe primarily due to its target sights, and it's the last Model 60 to use forged steel parts for the hammer, trigger, and thumbpiece. Subsequent models have metal injection molded parts.

The first two Model 60s with 3" Heavy Barrels are simply less common. Smith & Wesson produced parts for the 3" Heavy Barrel Model 60-1 with a square butt in 1972 then assembled and shipped 169 of them to multiple distributors on June 12, 1978. Then in 1984 the company made 1,000 Model 60s with 3" Heavy Barrels and square butts for John Jovino Company in New York City.

I don't know production numbers for the Model 60-4 (1990-1996), but we sure see lots more of them than the first two.