Crisis Intervention at the Range UPDATE 6/22!

[lkabug]

Someone should ask for the results of the safety committee study.
Seems as if that range has several serious issues. And two months and no results is indicative of one of the issues.

 

[6string]

I haven't seen mentioned where the fella' trying to help touched the fella' with the pistol. Did he?

Good question.
Yes.
One hand touch to the shoulder.
There wasn't a reaction, like that of someone being startled. He lowered the gun, put it on the bench, and then turned back to have the confrontation.
It appeared conscious.
It was aggressive and escalated the situation.

 

[delcrossv]

Then that guy clearly has issues. A touch on the shoulder in that situation is perfectly acceptable. His reaction was not reasonable.

 

[S-W4EVER]

Exactly why I've become a little anti-social in my old age. I have left the range early on more than one occasion because I wasn't comfortable with the guy(s) shooting in the next bay. Too many idiots out there.

 

[Chief Wiggums]

...find another range.

yup , immediately

This hobby / passion of ours has zero room for errors , poor judgement and bad habits.
In the event of perceived or potential trouble , it is wise to practice what we preach and avoid the situation.

On behalf of the range that sponsors the event with lax / loose regulations......its downright shameful , amateurs…..

 

[ShivasIrons]

I am a bit old school and received my Rangemaster training in the military.

I was taught that I was Accountable and Responsible for the safety of Everyone on the range from O6 down to E1. Everyone was treated with respect and respect was returned. No horseplay or skylarking allowed. I would keep your muzzle pointed downrange and I would place my hands on you to make sure that occurred if you had a momentary lapse of judgement.

Getting soft on safety will get people injured. Period. There are no do overs with respect to gun safety.

The Hot head needs to go.

The leadership needs to have a Safety Stand down and get their heads out of their backside.

 

[Kinman]

I'm a certified range officer and board member of our club. He would be gone if it came to board, which would require a range officer's or board member's action. We have given people another chance to retain their membership if they have been with the club any amount of time and admit wrong doing and accept the consequences of their actions.
I'm not as hot headed as some of the guys and tend to believe you can turn issues into a teaching moment and often this works out, some times it doesn't and I am forced to either give them their money back for a daily fee or send them packing for the day if they are members. I've never had one guy go to the board in the belief that he was right and I was wrong.
We are open to the public on Mondays and Fridays, I don't like it but its a public service that we hope helps to keep us in business. We don't have a way of knowing how much somebody knows about firearms but it doesn't take long to figure that out. We work with people and try to be helpful and its often rewarding, sometimes not so.
I'm watchful with the group of guys that I shoot with due to their advanced age. Muzzle loaders average age is probably over 50-55, many of the guys are over 70 and some actively shooting in their 80's. They are often too familiar with their equipment and lazy about muzzle control, I hate to correct guys at that advanced age, I'm nearly 68. I had a guy come down from a town north of here to shoot during a match and he had developed a fancy little twirl with his rifle after every offhand shot, probably to attract the country girls or something. He did it the first time and it almost looked like an accident, a couple of the guys rolled their eyes. After he did it the second time I went over and told him that he was going to have to keep his muzzle pointed downrange at all times, he nodded. He did it again and I told him that if he was going to continue he could pack his gear right now and save us all the grief. He did just that and ruined the day for his buddy that was with him, who told us that he was normally a good guy but probably off his medication that day.

 

[Jessie]

After reading everything here, I don't believe a public range is a safe place anymore.
Everyone behind the line and spectators are "accidents waiting to happen". "People will always break the safety rules", etc.
Maybe that's all true, but it sure shines a dim light on we shooters as a group doesn't it?
A bit depressing to read of it.

 

[Morgan88]

Seems like the membership would drop quickly if this person is not dealt with post haste. That mindset is scary at the range and everywhere else.

Morgan88

 

[Wise_A]

I'm not as hot headed as some of the guys and tend to believe you can turn issues into a teaching moment

I'm like that, but once he shoved the RSO--don't let the door hit you on the way out.

After reading everything here, I don't believe a public range is a safe place anymore.
Everyone behind the line and spectators are "accidents waiting to happen". "People will always break the safety rules", etc.
Maybe that's all true, but it sure shines a dim light on we shooters as a group doesn't it?
A bit depressing to read of it.

I'm presuming you're being sarcastic. Couple things.

The only public range I've been on...really wasn't that bad. But yeah, I saw a kid shooting a semi-auto .22LR into the floor and walls, intentionally, while his father ignored him from the next lane. RO wasn't even looking at the range. I'll take people's word for it that they're bad, but I really doubt club ranges are any better.

Two--yes, a large group of people standing around and waiting to shoot is a problem area. That's the mentality you have to have when you're operating an event. You can't just have RSOs milling around, you have to assign them to monitor the places where danger can come from. And the larger a group of people you bring together, the more likely it is you're going to find,say, a moron who wants to unbox and holster his pistol in a spectator area.

Third, I don't think shooters are all bad. Probably half are at least okay-ish, 40% have an occasional slip-up or maybe aren't as conscientious as they should be, and the remaining 10% are rather over-represented.

 

[Jessie]

Not sarcastic at all.
Especially after reading your post. It didn't make me feel any better about the issue.
I hear you...more people, more chances for screw ups.
We have to do better as a shooting community to stay safe and earn some trust.

 

[6string]

Again, my appreciation to everyone for contributing!

I have tried to give a good account of the situation without adding my own opinions.
In a couple weeks, there will be a regular members meeting. I plan to bring printed copies of the comments here and provide a link to the thread.

I can assure you all that your efforts will not go unheard, and hopefully, will contribute to a better situation.
And, I will follow up as best, and discreetly, as I can.

In the meantime, please feel free to offer your opinions.

Again, Thank You All!

 

[Muley Gil]

And my neighbors think I'm eccentric for digging a pond in the back field and using what came out for a berm and my own private shooting range.

No, you are a very wise man. When I bought my property in 2006, I told the realter I wanted 1) water on the land-stream, creek or pond 2) pasture for my mule and 3) a place to shoot. Anything I looked at had to have those three items or I wasn't interested.

I now have 20 + acres with three spring branches (small streams) that feed into one, then it flows into the creek. It has good pasture and several good spots to shoot.

 

[e3mrk]

That Guy needs to be banned from the club. I think you should have reported him to the Police also.

 

[Doug M.]

This is a dumpster fire, or maybe a series of them. You have described completely inadequate safety protocols and control (I'm no fan of micro-managing range Nazis, and they are rarely needed, but real rules and control are not optional); a person who is a complete (um, er, can't think of a family safe way to describe him), and a management structure that is complacent and indecisive. Given the event that happened, one would have to be a complete idiot to not foresee something of similar nature just begging to occur.

The range to which I belong (very nice place, indoor, darned near a country club setting compared to many ratty indoor ranges at which I have shot) has an annoying but through safety brief on film that every new member or visitor has to watch; at least one safety officer in the range at all times, and very attentive and helpful staff. They treat us like adults, and expect us to act that way.

What you described should have been dealt with as an emergency expulsion. 2 DAYS would be indicative of indecisiveness and a lack of understanding of the problem. 2 months is not even close to a reasonable standard. Give the management one chance to understand their responsibility, and if they can't get their heads out of their waste ejection port with alacrity, RUN AWAY and find a place to shoot that gets it.

I've seen many a shooter gently corrected (did it myself on an LE range once that I can remember - grabbed a cadet gently by the shoulders when she started to turn around and faced her back down range with a little verbal direction) - people who are responsible appreciate it, like the cadet in question. It did not become a discipline issue for her just a learning experience. I've seen one idiot expelled from a class, and that's just the way it had to be. People who are not serious about range safety are not people I want near me. I've been on many a "hot" range - guns are loaded at all times from the start of the day to the end, and not seen problems. It just takes thought and seriousness.

 

[6string]

The issue is still (amazingly!) largely unresolved.

A few folks are being quite the obstructionists in addressing the problems described, both in terms of a suitable response and corrective measures.
But, discussions with the club insurance company and an attorney really paint a frightening picture in terms of liability.

I have edited the original post and the follow up descriptive in post #14.

At the risk of being redundant, here are a few quotes from the guy who officiated over the event. I'll let these speak for themselves...

1) "I'm just here to have fun."

2) "I don't care what the rules say, I'm not changing how I run my matches one bit."

3) "I don't even know what the match is gonna be until I get here and make it up."

 

[Bugkiller99]

I'm speechless.

 

[M29since14]

If you can find another range, just leave. It's obvious no one at the present club appreciates your concern. Leave. Their loss.

 

[joeintexas]

Either that bozo and the range master would be gone or I would be! I don't like indoor ranges to begin with but I sure don't like any range that the safety of the members is that lax. That range sounds like an accident waiting to happen.

 

[Wise_A]

-No written match rules, although club bylaws indicate matches must be run according to NRA or other national sanctioning body (i.e.: IDPA, CMP, USPSA, SASS, IHMSA, etc.) match rules.

I just picked up on this. It's a cop-out--most rulebooks don't have requirements for how many safety officials you need, where that needs to be manned by one, etc. They do that to protect the sanctioning body from lawsuits--if we don't tell you how many guys you need, nobody can sue us because they think you need more--and also to protect small clubs that maybe can't afford to field 39 safety officers to run an event where 8 guys are going to show up, especially if those 8 guys are not normally morons.

Your guys need a CRSO and a better SOP. CRSO would write stuff like how-many-and-where, and usually verify events are being run properly. The board/officers usually have final say, but in most situations, the CRSO's recommendations carry a ton of weight.

UPDATE 5/28 POST MEETING

The "Range Official" running this event was very defensive about how he does things. Here are three choice quotes:

1) "I'm just here to have fun."

lulz

2) "I don't care what the rules say, I'm not changing how I run my matches one bit."

Later, dude, don't let the door hit ya.

3) "I don't even know what the match is gonna be until I get here and make it up."

Fair enough, actually. I wouldn't call it best practices, but it's somewhat common for directors of casual events to make up courses of fire and layouts on-the-spot.

Yeah, if they haven't canned this guy, then they're

(a) not serious about running a safe range
(b) a good ol' boys club
(c) morons

Or all three.

But, discussions with the club insurance company and an attorney really paint a frightening picture in terms of liability.

It gets better, dude! No, really.

Typically, clubs have insurance policy which protects club officers against personal liability. These policies are generally written to cover you in the event that you, acting in the club's best interests, and performing your duties to the best of your abilities, manage to ... up.

However, they do not cover you in the event that you're personally negligent. In other words, you have to be able to claim "I tried my best" or "I didn't know any better" or "I didn't know such-and-such was going on".

So now, your club officers do in fact know that there's a problem going on. They had a long time to do something about it, and haven't. They're probably now aware that there's specialized, industry-standard training that you can get, for crazy cheap. Not even kidding, an RSO cert goes for between $100-$150 around me. A CRSO course is usually a few hundred, but that's usually two days at least and includes NRA Basic Instructor.

Now that these guys have elected not to do any of that, or remove the offending in-duh-vidual, their personal backsides are hanging way the hell out there.

If some dude gets shot, they should know that they're now in the realm of losing their retirements and houses and all that nice stuff.

Protip to er'rybody else: being a club officer is serious business.

 

[dave1918a2]

At Our gun club there are several matches run each month. All are run by the discipline rules AND Our rules. Any infraction results in immediate suspension and then the BOD decides. That jerk would have been suspended, arrested for assault, reckless endangerment, and anything else the SO can come up with. The Match director and His attitude would be removed permanently. We run a tight range and do not tolerate stupid, arrogant, or know it alls. Any mistake with a firearm can be the last for someone or something and the fewer chances allowed for that to happen the better. I can't tell how many times I have heard " I'm not a member, I don't have to obey the rules." If the BOD has done nothing in two months, it would seem They don't intend to. At the Members meeting bring this issue up and if Club By-Laws allow it, remove the BOD and elect new ones. When I first look at joining an organization, the first thing I do is ask for a copy of the By-Laws. Talk with the Atty and get a ruling before the meeting.

 

[Rastoff]

...what are the implications, legally or otherwise, for an individual who commits an assault while in possession of a concealed weapon?

The firearm was not brandished during the altercation, but was nonetheless on his person.

This will depend on state law. In my state, there is a phrase in the law, "...while in possession of a firearm..." that will alter the way any prosecution goes in a situation like this. It's not good for the assailant. Check your local/state laws for this.

Further, the club may have some liability if they do nothing. The assailant should have been suspended immediately pending a board decision.

You (the club/range) need to contact your insurance company. They will give you sound advice.

2) "I don't care what the rules say,...

Friend, this is the biggest problem. Anyone, ANYONE who can say this is a problem. This indicates that they think they are above the rules/law and have a Napoleon complex. This personality type has to show that they are in charge. It often manifests itself by the person violating some rule just to show that they can do what they want. At a gun range it is dangerous and a liability for the club.

This person needs to be removed from his position immediately. If he can't follow the rules, how can he expect anyone to follow his rules?



At any shooting range/event, safety is everyone's responsibility. The guy who prevented the second shooter is the only one in this situation that did anything correctly. Every person there should have backed him up and the assailant should have been asked to leave. By not backing him up, everyone else is culpable in my opinion.

 

[NAM68]

Range

I've been shot at a outside range get rid of anyone who does'nt take it seriously.

 

[6string]

Hi Everyone,

Latest update as of June 17th, the foolishness is continuing. Out of 20 "competitors", there were 4 safety infractions, including gun pointed up-range at spectators!!!

There's also this....
while the legal ramifications of the event of the March match seem to indicate that a third degree misdemeanor assault was possibly committed, the possession of a firearm might raise the incident potentially to a criminal level. To quote South Carolina State law:
"SECTION 16-23-490. Additional punishment for possession of firearm or knife during
commission of, or attempt to commit, violent crime.
(A) If a person is in possession of a firearm or visibly displays what appears to be a
firearm or visibly displays a knife during the commission of a violent crime and is
convicted of committing or attempting to commit a violent crime as defined in
Section 16-1-60, he must be imprisoned five years, in addition to the punishment
provided for the principal crime."

Yet, no consequences!
Recommendations made, including quotes from bylaws. All ignored.
So, that's it. My wife and I have quit this club.

 

[M29since14]

Implementing your citation would seem a little extreme to me, but I wasn't there to witness the event. You are better off moving on. I believe it's obvious you made the right choice.

 

[6string]

Implementing your citation would seem a little extreme to me, but I wasn't there to witness the event. You are better off moving on. I believe it's obvious you made the right choice.

Agreed.

Interestingly, another member was kicked out in the fall for a domestic violence issue that had nothing to do with the club.

The contrast seems noteworthy...

Another reason we're outta there!

 

[Onomea]

6string, I agree wholeheartedly with your decision to just leave.

You tried to help. They didn't want to hear it.

 

[Wise_A]

Gun pointed uprange, no remediation? Yeah, time to leave. These guys aren't taking the situation seriously.

I'd guess a bunch of board members and officers attend these shoots.

 

[Rastoff]

So, that's it. My wife and I have quit this club.

I really hate to see people quit a gun club. In this case however, it's the right thing to do.

 

[WR Moore]

Thoughts???

UPDATE 5/28

Please see post #14 for the more comprehensive description of the event and follow up.


The "Range Official" running this event was very defensive about how he does things. Here are three choice quotes:

1) "I'm just here to have fun."

2) "I don't care what the rules say, I'm not changing how I run my matches one bit."

3) "I don't even know what the match is gonna be until I get here and make it up."

Having briefly been a Match Director some ye...ok, decades ago, this guy needs to be forbidden to organize or conduct any range evolutions and/or thrown out on his ear. Given all the above statements, if the club continues to allow him to preside over his clown shows, they're likely to be holding the liability bag in the event of injuries. Wouldn't surprise me if the club had to close and the board/officers have to pony up a few bucks too. Perhaps this hasn't dawned upon them. Someone needs to point it out. I expect the insurance company would be extremely perturbed.

About point #3, I always had my stages/target layouts predetermined and they sometime needed adjustment to avoid issues of various types. Again, this is trouble waiting to happen.