Cylinder Fitment

[stu1ritter]

George, parts showed up from Brownell and are fitted. While all the instructions say to not shorten the center pin, I had to. Not much about .030" and the ejector rod had to be shortened slightly and chamfered on the inside to make it easier for the ejector rod end to pass off the locking bolt when opening. It was a quick touch of the center pin on a fine grinding wheel and then polished on emery paper. Slight chamfer on the locking bolt end of the center pin. Probably took 15 minutes. I'll start cutting ratchets tomorrow.

Stu

 

[georgek472]

Cylinder fitment

stu,
Thanx for the pic...looks awesome... Looks like fitment, including ejector rod was successful..Congrats. After reading your post, seems like ejection rod fitment is relatively easy. I will have my parts from Numrich,and Brownells the upcoming week... I hope your complete install goes well... Looks and sounds rewarding after all your work. Thanx again for your info. Best to you..George K.

 

[stu1ritter]

All done. As Carter said, I lucked out. I put a spot of Dykem on the ratchet face and scribed a light line through the frame hand window on the inside vertical face which would be where the hand would pass the ratchet tooth as it was cycling into place. When I took the cylinder out there seemed to be very little material to remove so I just took a few file strokes and put it back in to check and the hand almost cleared the tooth. Did it again and it cleared and worked. I did the other 5 ratchet teeth and put the gun together and with some empties in the chambers cycled it through twice in double action. A little stiff on two chambers but that will clean up when I stone the teeth smooth from the filing. Took it to the range and fired half a box of 50 CCI HP-V rounds. There is a nice blue flame at the muzzle of this 4" pre-18 with these rounds. This was a very enjoyable project and a great learning curve. Ratchets and timing always seemed to scare me away but after doing one, it is pretty straight forward. Kuhnhausen's shop manual has a lot of info on ratchet fitting and timing for anyone contemplating this process. Thanks Carter.

Stu

 

[steelslaver]

Excellent work. Glad it worked out for you and that you gained some experience on the project. When I cut the ratchet teeth to fit a recessed model 29 cylinder that had been reamed to 45 colt I was nervous in the beginning , but itt worked out.

To me working on them can be as interesting as shooting them. In fact I spend more time tinkering that shooting.

 

[georgek472]

Congrats Stu,
Thanx to you and Carter I feel more comfortable with my fitment knowing that this procedure has been successfully completed by two (2) members here. I hope to get lucky with my install, which will happen in a few weeks. Waiting on Numrich and Brownell's for parts... Thank you all for your help and information...Best George K..

 

[georgek472]

Cylinder fitment

Stu. I ordered 2 extractor rods from Brownells, (Numrich had nothing in stock). The ones I ordered are both too short.
#940 074 830--- bbl over 3"
#940 070 500 --- bbl over 2 1/2"
Would you know the correct p/n ??
Brownell only lists the above 2 items.
My #17 is 8 3/8' barrel...
Thanx Again for your help...George K.

 

[stu1ritter]

The part I ordered was S&W 070050000/Brownell 940-070-500WB which is the correct number for the 648. The other number you ordered seemed to be for stainless N frame revolvers. In my S & W parts catalog (factory) the only stainless extractor rods shown for 617 are the 070050000 which you have and the 077590000 which Brownells shows as their 940-000-241WB Extractor Rod, Glass Beaded, SS.

Is your model 17 a left hand threaded extractor? Does that rod fit?

Stu

 

[georgek472]

Cylinder fitment

Good morning Stu,
Thank you for your response regarding the correct p/n for the extractor rod.. I I suspect the rod is left handed thread if that is standard for that item from S/W..Still trying to remove from cylinder without damaging the knurling... I will try again or I will call S/W....
Sorry to respond late to your message I ve been fighting the Flu.. Thank You again for your help...Best; George K.

 

[georgek472]

Cylinder fitment

Stu,
Was able to loosen the extractor and fit the new s/s #648 extractor... It fits properly and locks into place. Guess I got lucky !!..... George K.

 

[stu1ritter]

I would have thought that the 070050000 was the right one for your K frame. That is the correct part number for the 648 K frame who's cylinder we are using. Sounds like you didn't have to do any end fitting at all. Nice.

Stu

 

[georgek472]

Cylinder fitment

Stu,
Was able to loosen the extractor and fit the new s/s #648 extractor... It fits properly and locks into place. Guess I got lucky !! Left hand threads..... George K.

 

[georgek472]

Thanx for the RIGHT information... George K.

 

[NavySCPO]

The part I ordered was S&W 070050000/Brownell 940-070-500WB which is the correct number for the 648. The other number you ordered seemed to be for stainless N frame revolvers. In my S & W parts catalog (factory) the only stainless extractor rods shown for 617 are the 070050000 which you have and the 077590000 which Brownells shows as their 940-000-241WB Extractor Rod, Glass Beaded, SS.

Is your model 17 a left hand threaded extractor? Does that rod fit?

Stu

Stu, hope you don't mind that I jump into the conversation, but I have an 18-3 I would like to convert also. I have a 648 cylinder (with extractor only), and a 17 cylinder complete with yoke, extractor rod, center pin and both springs.

I've been following your posts, and I'm about to order the extractor rod, center pin, collar, and both springs from Brownells and Numerich, neither site had all the parts.

Hopefully not too stupid a question, but can I use the 17 yoke to complete the assembly? It does not appear to seat flush with the front of the cylinder. In the 17 cylinder it does fit flush, was this what you mentioned grinding down very slightly?. I haven't tried, but assume I would have the same issue with the 18-3 yoke.

I cannot use the other 17 parts, since the extractor rod has right hand threads (I was able to take it apart), and I assume the 648 is left hand.

Thank you very much for all the detailed information, been a pleasure to read and follow your project.

 

[stu1ritter]

NavySCPO, I used my pre-18 yoke without problem and correct it will not seat flush. The diameter of the gas ring would rub on the bottom of the barrel on my pre-18 and so I had to increase the size of the flat on the bottom of the barrel to gain clearance. The fact that it doesn't seat flush doesn't matter on the yoke doesn't matter at all. When you have all of your parts together, test fit it and see where you are.

Stu

Stu

 

[NavySCPO]

NavySCPO, I used my pre-18 yoke without problem and correct it will not seat flush. The diameter of the gas ring would rub on the bottom of the barrel on my pre-18 and so I had to increase the size of the flat on the bottom of the barrel to gain clearance. The fact that it doesn't seat flush doesn't matter on the yoke doesn't matter at all. When you have all of your parts together, test fit it and see where you are.

Stu

Stu

Thanks Stu, much appreciated. Hope mine turns out as well as that one of yours, make a great walking in the woods gun.

Danny

 

[georgek472]

Cylinder fitment

Hello again,
Armorer951(Carlton) & Stu1ritter (Stu).
I have received all my goodies from Henrich & Brownell's this past week and found the s/s .22 Mag cylinder had been used and returned to Numrich, several scratches and worn areas around the ratchets and the opposite end (forcing cone). I returned and Numrich replaced cylinder with a nicer replacement.
My concern is that Numrich says 2 cylinder pins needed, they are no holes pre-drilled in the cylinder, under the star to fit the 2 pins.
I mentioned this to Numrich in the return letter describing my concerns, asked why 2 pins are needed on your website if there is no pre-drilled holes to accept the 2 pins.. No answer..
My question to Carter and Stu, did your parts come with pre-drilled holes for the pins, or installed cylinder without pins in place. or drill your own holes..???
Thanx again for all your help..George K.

 

[stu1ritter]

Mine did not come pre-drilled for pins and it totally escaped my attention so I installed the cylinder without pins. I guess I have to look into this. It would be simple enough to do.

Stu

 

[NavySCPO]

Hello again,
Armorer951(Carlton) & Stu1ritter (Stu).
I have received all my goodies from Henrich & Brownell's this past week and found the s/s .22 Mag cylinder had been used and returned to Numrich, several scratches and worn areas around the ratchets and the opposite end (forcing cone). I returned and Numrich replaced cylinder with a nicer replacement.
My concern is that Numrich says 2 cylinder pins needed, they are no holes pre-drilled in the cylinder, under the star to fit the 2 pins.
I mentioned this to Numrich in the return letter describing my concerns, asked why 2 pins are needed on your website if there is no pre-drilled holes to accept the 2 pins.. No answer..
My question to Carter and Stu, did your parts come with pre-drilled holes for the pins, or installed cylinder without pins in place. or drill your own holes..???
Thanx again for all your help..George K.

Jist tossing this out there, but my 648 cylinder has a flat on the shaft instead of pins like on my 17.

Certainly no gunsmith, but I assume the pins were to keep the extractor star aligned, so I'm guessing the flat eliminated the need for the pins, correct?

 

[armorer951]

Yes sir, that's correct. Extractor alignment pins are no longer needed or used. The flat on the extractor shaft serves the purpose of keeping the extractor in proper alignment..... along with the casings that are present inside the chambers.

BTW, empty casings should be used to align the extractor when the ratchets are marked and cut. This eliminates any gauge present in the assembly as the ratchets are fit/cut, and helps to keep the barrel and individual chambers aligned. (final cylinder timing)

Carter

 

[stu1ritter]

I checked the two revolvers I own that use the later ejector with the flat and neither is pinned from the factory so, as Carter said, we are good to go.

Stu

 

[NavySCPO]

George, parts showed up from Brownell and are fitted. While all the instructions say to not shorten the center pin, I had to. Not much about .030" and the ejector rod had to be shortened slightly and chamfered on the inside to make it easier for the ejector rod end to pass off the locking bolt when opening. It was a quick touch of the center pin on a fine grinding wheel and then polished on emery paper. Slight chamfer on the locking bolt end of the center pin. Probably took 15 minutes. I'll start cutting ratchets tomorrow.

Stu

Stu, George, armorer951, and others kind enough to chime in, received all my parts from Brownell's and Numrich today, and between having to stop and help with tomorrow's feast, got it assembled.

Is this (photos) what you saw and had to slightly shorten the center pin and taper the other end for smooth lock up? That part seems reasonably easy, of course I haven't been able to close the cylinder to check the hand/ratchet fit.

Thank you! Really looking forward to finishing it up...although I'm sure I'll follow previous advice and have a competent gunsmith complete the ratchet cutting, out of my league I'm afraid.

It's after midnight so...Happy Thanksgiving to all, sincerely hope each and every one of you have much to be thankful for!

 

[stu1ritter]

Danny, yes, that's just about what my center pin looked like but my ejector rod was a bit longer than yours. Pretty easy to make it fit.

Stu

 

[NavySCPO]

Danny, yes, that's just about what my center pin looked like but my ejector rod was a bit longer than yours. Pretty easy to make it fit.

Stu

Thank you Stu, got the center pin shortened, and lock up is very tight, seems like an easy enough adjustment but wanted to ask a question first to make sure I haven't missed something.

The cylinder rotates freely when holding the hammer back slightly, however, when I pull the hammer back completely, it will not lock in position. I believe timing is in alignment, because at each of the 6 positions, I can insert a range rod with K22 head, and it goes in smooth to the rear of the cylinder with no obstruction at all.

So if I take it to a gunsmith for ratchet cuts should this cure the lock up, or could it be something else?

Thank you again!

 

[armorer951]

Yes sir.....in the scenario you describe, the hand cannot pass the uncut ratchets, and they must be fit in order for the hammer and trigger to finish their rearward movement. It may fail to cycle fully in DA for the same reason.

Carter

 

[NavySCPO]

Yes sir.....in the scenario you describe, the hand cannot pass the uncut ratchets, and they must be fit in order for the hammer and trigger to finish their rearward movement. It may fail to cycle fully in DA for the same reason.

Carter

Thank you Carter, yes sir, it does exactly the same in DA. I thought that was the issue, sincerely appreciate your explanation and confirmation. Far too easy, at least for me, sometimes to chase after imagined issues, and cause other problems in the process. That's especially easy for those of us with limited skills.

 

[armorer951]

Danny,

Yep. That's why experience is so valuable. It helps me recognize a mistake when I make it again.

 

[armorer951]

Here's another possible conversion cylinder project on a model 25-5. Used a 625 cylinder and had Mark at Pinnacle High Performance cut the stainless cylinder for moon clips. The gun will now shoot .45ACP, .45 Colt (and probably other stuff) out of the 625 cylinder. The other original cylinder remains in-tact, although it is plagued with the "oversized" chambers, and never shot consistently.

I believe I purchased the 625 cylinder from Midway. A fun project.

 

[NavySCPO]

Danny,

Yep. That's why experience is so valuable. It helps me recognize a mistake when I make it again.

Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.

Well, I decided I need experience in cutting ratchets, or I'll never learn, I figured the worst that could happen was I would end up buying another extractor from Numrich and start over.

Thanks to the wonderful advice provided here, and careful study of the S&W Shop Manual by Jerry Kuhnhausen, I figured it out. Only focusing on a single ratchet, I slowly (very slowly) began to shape with the Barrette #1 file. Put the cylinder back in, test, and file again. It took about 4 or 5 tries, until, to my great satisfaction the cylinder locked in place on that single position. What a great feeling to go through 5 positions, and then the 6th locks!

I'm sure this is pretty common for a qualified gunsmith, but for me it was an incredible experience! Now, on to the other 5 and I will have one sweet conversion and a nice walk in the woods 22 LR or 22 Magnum.

Thank you all for the advice, nothing quite as satisfying as doing it yourself.

 

[NavySCPO]

18-3/648 Range Report

Well I've never been a great shot with a pistol, but pretty happy with this final product. Finished cutting the ratchets, then had to wait for an Arkansas stone to smooth them out a bit, nice action now.

CCI 22 WMR with the 648 cylinder installed. Not great, but not bad for a 70 year old with lousy eyesight. I didn't adjust the sights, want to shoot the 18-3 in the 22 LR cylinder to see how POI changes.

 

[NavySCPO]

18-3 22 LR Range Report

Interesting...the 22 LR actually shot a bit wider pattern, just over 3" where the 22 WMR shot under 2", could just be my old eyes. Both were CCI 40 grain FMJ to keep the testing as fair as possible.

The bullet placement was very close to the same, which is the opposite of what I expected from previous reading. Thinking that it would change from one caliber to the other in the same gun, POI was very close, no sight adjustments were done (yet).

Thanks again to George, Carter and Stu for providing such great advice and support. It sure was a fun project and lots of fun to shoot, and shoot cheap. Just one more reason this forum is such a special place!