DA/SA Question

[WR Moore]

The prosecution introduced the theory it was an accidental discharge. Who knows why. Doesn't make any sense. But then not all prosecutors are top drawer material. The prosecution contended it was an accidental shooting.

I sorta expect the intent was to limit city liability by getting the jury to buy a violation of policy/procedure, but I don't know what Miami's policy was then. Deal bait? (Hey, you can do X years standing on your head.)

There are some real gems in the legal field. Then you add in the ones looking to make political points.

While a ND with a DAO isn't impossible, it's a whole lot easier with SA capability. Plus you eliminate the idiots who'd cock the revolver as an escalated threat.

 

[Walkingwolf]

A cocked gun is a cocked gun, that includes Glock(almost completely cocked) which most police depts are using. Unless the dept is using the NY trigger the trigger pull is comparable to SA revolvers, though just a tad longer, but not much. As far as I know most of the recent ND's resulting in injury have been with a cocked striker fired gun. The big difference between a Glock, and a SA, or SA/DA revolver is the hammer is not cocked out of the holster, it has to be manually cocked. Ya know it being an inanimate object, it does not cock itself. Where as a Glock does when it is fired, and when it is racked. There is almost no way to carry a loaded Glock without it being cocked.

And anybody that pulls a gun that does not intend to fire it, for any reason, including escalating a threat is a dangerous fool.

 

[Wise_A]

You know cops used to shoot themselves all the time when DA/SAs got issued, right? They holstered without remembering to decock.

And you know cops shot themselves all the time when revolvers were the big issued gun, right? They just jammed the things in there.

And they shot themselves all the time with SA pistols, because they forgot to engage the safety.

Now everybody's shooting themselves with some variant of a striker-fired pistol, because that's what they're issued. Ditto for all the Rufuses out there shooting themselves--everybody's got some kind of striker gun.

Unless the dept is using the NY trigger the trigger pull is comparable to SA revolvers, though just a tad longer, but not much.

If the single-action pull on your revolver feels like a Glock, then there's something horribly wrong with your revolver.

I mean, either that, or tell me who did the work on your Glock, I got some business for him.

There is almost no way to carry a loaded Glock without it being cocked.

There's literally no way to do it.

A cocked gun is a cocked gun, that includes Glock(almost completely cocked) which most police depts are using.

...

The big difference between a Glock, and a SA, or SA/DA revolver is the hammer is not cocked out of the holster, it has to be manually cocked. Ya know it being an inanimate object, it does not cock itself. Where as a Glock does when it is fired, and when it is racked.

Dude, this is...it doesn't make any sense. You're hammering together apples and oranges.

The difference between a Glock-alike and other handguns is that the firing mechanism is completely internal. A single-action pistol has a manual safety. A double-action revolver has a big ol' exposed hammer. A DA/SA pistol has a decocker and a big ol' hammer.

Some people really aren't comfortable without some kind of external control. That's cool, whatevs--looking at my little collection of gats, it's really only the Glocks that are like that.

Some people--and this is wild--picked Glock-alikes because there's nothing external that can stop the gun from firing, short of yanking the slide far-enough out of battery.

And my point--some people can't be taught gun safety.

Case in point. The chief of a small town managed to shoot himself in a gun store. He whipped out his carrying gat to compare it to Le New Gat size-wise, and then went to re-holster his current duty gun, promptly shooting hisself.

That's not even the funny part. I mean, aside from taking out your loaded carry gun and muzzling everybody just to see which is bigger.

The funny part is that he takes out his gun, and holds it cradling it at the muzzle and butt. And on his left hand, which is right at the muzzle of the gun, he has a scar--which he got from shooting himself in the hand 10 years earlier.

Think about that. He shot himself in the hand, and a decade later, is doing the same damn thing.

You gonna blame the gun's trigger mechanism for a guy like that?

 

[Walkingwolf]

Your kidding right, you pull the trigger a gun goes boom. What the heck difference does it make rather it is striker, or hammer, or internal. Get over it, people will carry how they want to legally. If that means single action, then you will just have to stomp your feet, not that it will do you any good.

Abide by the law, unless you can find a law against single action revolvers, and DA/SA revolvers your gonna have to live with it.

Glock leg
A condition where a person shoots himself (or herself) in the leg while holstering their Glock pistol.

This can happen with any weapon yielded by a careless user, but it is common among Glock pistols due to the lack of a manual safety, relatively light trigger pull, and lack of a proper hammer to push on while holstering.

Urban Dictionary: Glock leg

 

[Wise_A]

You just wrote a tirade against striker-fired pistols, and then accused me of hating on DA/SAs before quoting Urban Dictionary.

Pot, meet kettle.

 

[Walkingwolf]

You just wrote a tirade against striker-fired pistols, and then accused me of hating on DA/SAs before quoting Urban Dictionary.

Pot, meet kettle.

No that was not a tirade, read your posts for tirades. I simply stated facts that some striker fired guns are cocked. Both models commonly carried by police are cocked, S&W M&P, and Glock. Both guns if the trigger is pulled goes bang. Just like any other gun when the trigger is pulled. It really is simple.

I am not putting down striker fired guns, just pointing to the hypocrisy of those that point fingers at others. Especially when they can't deal with lack of empathy for them.

 

[shouldazagged]

I do hope this isn't going to become a full-fledged urine fest. I don't come here for that. I can find it in other forums.

 

[white cloud]

I am the O.P. Recall that I asked why a DA/SA auto was considered to be "okay" by the experts but a DA/SA revolver with SA capability was considered a legal liability. I did not ask about striker fired pistols or SA pistols.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I am the O.P. Recall that I asked why a DA/SA auto was considered to be "okay" by the experts but a DA/SA revolver with SA capability was considered a legal liability. I did not ask about striker fired pistols or SA pistols.

In my opinion, it's because people haven't thought it through, although this might be it: A DA/SA semiauto has a safety and/or decocker. If you end up in SA, you can make the pistol safe pretty quickly. With a revolver with the hammer back and cocked, it's not exactly a smooth and/or safe operation to decock. That's all I got . . .

 

[ispcapt]

I am the O.P. Recall that I asked why a DA/SA auto was considered to be "okay" by the experts but a DA/SA revolver with SA capability was considered a legal liability. I did not ask about striker fired pistols or SA pistols.

Simple. Your premise is wrong from the beginning. If they were truly an expert then they wouldn't be holding that thought.
The only 'experts' holding that opinion are internet experts who have never investigated shootings and testified in criminal and civil court on shootings.

 

[Walkingwolf]

In my opinion, it's because people haven't thought it through, although this might be it: A DA/SA semiauto has a safety and/or decocker. If you end up in SA, you can make the pistol safe pretty quickly. With a revolver with the hammer back and cocked, it's not exactly a smooth and/or safe operation to decock. That's all I got . . .

CZ75 has both, with decocker, and without. Witness clones do not have decocker. The hammer has to be lowered using both hands on a live round to use DA. CZ75 have been a very popular carry gun for a long time. They also have the option to be carried cocked, and locked on the models without the decocker.

The problem I see is the phobia some have without realizing most of the modern pistols used are in fact SA with a slightly modified trigger. The AR is carried loaded SA, most shotguns are carried loaded SA. It all comes back to trigger discipline for guns that are DA, or cocked.

For guns that are SA only the only way for the trigger to make them go boom is for the hammer to be cocked. It is simple mechanics, take out the emotion, and it starts to make more sense.

NO civilian should touch their gun unless they have justification to use deadly force. Most states have laws against brandishing. NC has a common law called Going Armed to the Terror of the People(GATTTOP). Even in some cases when police officers point a gun they can suffer consequences, especially if they shoot someone without justification. NYPD Officer Liang, though I believe he served no jail time.

Most police officers carried SA/DA revolvers for decades before the plastic fantastics. Seemed like there were far less ND's during that time. Maybe the safety training was much better then.

The reason for the DAO revolvers by departments was a trust issue, just like departments that would not allow 1911's. There is no court case I know of that a gun of any type was found to be at fault in a shooting. It is always the person holding the gun.

 

[Arik]

Most police officers carried SA/DA revolvers for decades before the plastic fantastics. Seemed like there were far less ND's during that time. Maybe the safety training was much better then.

.

Maybe. Maybe there was no internet to post on. If you're in the PNW would you know of a ND in some town in the NJ pine barrens? Goes for cops and civilians.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[Walkingwolf]

News of ND's spread quickly locally especially in the LE community. There just were not that many. I can only think of a couple I am aware of. My brother was shot by another officer shooting at a car, the bullet skipped off the pavement and caught him in the arm. The second was a part time university officer who got caught shooting up a barn. I don't have to be on the internet to hear about ND's. The Fayetteville chief of police shot herself in the hand. It was on TV, and in the newspapers, both have been around for decades, one for centuries. There is a problem with ND's, DC police documented the increase in ND's within their department, and they were substantial.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I am aware of a police department in southeast Missouri with a variety of unintended holes in various pieces of drywall, door frame, locker, etc., each one with a very funny story. All are over 30 years old. You're kidding yourself if you think there is a rising supply curve for ND's. I would imagine that nationwide, the incidence is directly proportional to the number of officers with pistols at any given time. My guess is a 1 to 2% incidence of negligent discharges per thousand officers. There can certainly be outliers, like your example, but I am only aware of a couple ND's in the department I speak of in the last 30 years . . .

News of ND's spread quickly locally especially in the LE community. There just were not that many. I can only think of a couple I am aware of. My brother was shot by another officer shooting at a car, the bullet skipped off the pavement and caught him in the arm. The second was a part time university officer who got caught shooting up a barn. I don't have to be on the internet to hear about ND's. The Fayetteville chief of police shot herself in the hand. It was on TV, and in the newspapers, both have been around for decades, one for centuries. There is a problem with ND's, DC police documented the increase in ND's within their department, and they were substantial.

 

[Walkingwolf]

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-sheriff-guns-20150614-story.html

Of course they blame the firearm, but a firearm is an inanimate object. The problem goes to the officers involved. Gun mounted flashlights have also been blamed for police ND's, but again the flashlights do not pull the trigger. The person that screws up did not have the proper firearm discipline in the first place.

There is no reason to blame any firearm, or device for what is operator error. Maybe that is where the problem is, instead blaming the knucklehead behind the gun the object gets blamed. When you don't hold people accountable, you get less accountability.

 

[Wise_A]

Oh, it's real simple, WW. Review the following premises:

(1) Handling a firearm takes training.

(2) Training time costs money (facilities, rangemasters, ammunition, payroll for the officers being trained, etc).

(3) Police budgets are limited.

(4) Each officer employed represents a significant investment in training time, just to get a basic, year-one patrolman, officer, or deputy.

(5) People get hurt in training. Spend enough time training enough officers, and somebody will get hurt.

(6) Probably the least-used skill your average police officer uses is his firearms training.

Add them up, and you get the following:

--Departments are motivated to spend the minimum amount of time and resources on training, but don't want to take the blame when somebody gets hurt. And they also don't want to blame the guy that gets hurt, because then he'd have to be replaced, and paid-off when he gets fired and sues.

--It's easiest to blame equipment rather than admit that it's simply a fact of life that an ND with resulting injury is inevitable.

--...and the last thing we would want to admit is that our training was anything but the best, because then we'd get sued.

Why are there more now? The proliferation of internet and video.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Easy to say for somebody who's never been involved with any of it . . .

Oh, it's real simple, WW. Review the following premises:

(1) Handling a firearm takes training.

(2) Training time costs money (facilities, rangemasters, ammunition, payroll for the officers being trained, etc).

(3) Police budgets are limited.

(4) Each officer employed represents a significant investment in training time, just to get a basic, year-one patrolman, officer, or deputy.

(5) People get hurt in training. Spend enough time training enough officers, and somebody will get hurt.

(6) Probably the least-used skill your average police officer uses is his firearms training.

Add them up, and you get the following:

--Departments are motivated to spend the minimum amount of time and resources on training, but don't want to take the blame when somebody gets hurt. And they also don't want to blame the guy that gets hurt, because then he'd have to be replaced, and paid-off when he gets fired and sues.

--It's easiest to blame equipment rather than admit that it's simply a fact of life that an ND with resulting injury is inevitable.

--...and the last thing we would want to admit is that our training was anything but the best, because then we'd get sued.

Why are there more now? The proliferation of internet and video.