DAO and Bobbed Hammers - What's the deal?

[SW357Addict]

Hello. I was curious. I don't understand the advantages or reasons to have a S&W revolver that is double action only (DAO). I understand that a bobbed hammer (DAO) will be easier to draw and will be less likely to snag. Could someone enlighten me on the reasons to have a revolver in DAO. What applications would a DAO revolver be suited to?

 

[whitecoyote]

Hello. I was curious. I don't understand the advantages or reasons to have a S&W revolver that is double action only (DAO). I understand that a bobbed hammer (DAO) will be easier to draw and will be less likely to snag. Could someone enlighten me on the reasons to have a revolver in DAO. What applications would a DAO revolver be suited to?

DAO revolvers were used/issued by Police Departments so the Officer(s) could not cock the revolver, and shoot it single action. This was probably for liabilty reasons.

There were instances of Officers cocking their revolvers (single action), then when the situation defused, the revolver was uncocked, or the revolver was thought to be un-cocked(?) It was called a "ghost trigger".
It's hard to explain, but when (certain) S&W revolvers were decocked, the hammer may get caught in a "half cocked" position, creating a "hair trigger", and the revolver is still capable of firing with this "hair trigger".

From what I understand, S&W always denied this "ghost Trigger" syndrome, but paid out on the lawsuits.
Maybe someone else can chime in here with more information?

 

[Dale53]

I have been awakened by a "bump in the night". Half asleep, somewhat befuddled, is no time for a light single action trigger.

Under those circumstances, a double action trigger is preferable, IMO, to avoid a possible accidental discharge. If the day comes when I or mine are threatened I don't want an accidental shooting, with double action I will not be apt to let one off unintentionally but am not really limited by having to use double action.

It does increase the skill level needed, but that is not all bad. Just practice, and practice, and practice...

Dale53

 

[Revolver_Fan]

Double Action Only (DAO)

A. Liability concerns - reduced liability
B. Easier manual-of-arms
C. Consistency of trigger pull

Bobbed hammer is to reduce the possibility that the hammer will snag on clothing when being drawn.

 

[617fan]

I understand the liability of SA on a police gun; the SA trigger pull on my Model 60 is so light that the first time I went to dry fire it, it would have been an AD if it had been loaded. But as a civilian living in the "sticks" I also carry for pests on 4 legs and no legs. I don't worry much about the liability of an AD against the two legged variety: I can't imagine a civilian self defense situation I would encounter where I would be justified to draw and not shoot vs the numerous times the lighter SA trigger has been handy in dispatching garden pests. I can see both sides, but for my situation I wouldn't be without the hammer and single action.

 

[flop-shank]

Addict, learn the DA trigger well and you will have little use for the SA. The late Jim Cirillo was a champion shooter that beat the competition firing DA when they were firing single. There is more of a surprise sear break. I killed a woodchuck about a month ago double action. Once you get it down, you won't go back.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

OK, we already know the reason for the bobbed hammer. Once you bob the hammer, there is a lot to be said for removing the SA notch on the hammer, because, frankly, it is not always that easy to uncock a cocked hammer without a spur. Some people would claim that it is an accident waiting to happen.

But I think that the original reason for removing the SA notch was a result of the trial of a policeman (named Martinez?) in the 80's, who had quite properly killed a perp in some kind of entertainment arcade in Miami. He was falsely accused of having cocked the gun and then having had it "go off" accidentally. One result was that some PD's figured that if the gun couldn't be cocked SA, that spurious charge couldn't be made.

I happen to believe that the folks who remove the SA notch after bobbing are correct, but I don't always do it, because I just don't care. I'm not lending the gun to anyone else, and I'm not even going to remove a sideplate for a shyster lawyer, not that I have any suspicion that I will ever run into one. With a bobbed hammer, I just don't use it SA. I can shoot just as accurately DA as SA with any gun that I have bobbed, although I will admit that I can shoot accurately a little faster SA.

YMMV.

 

[FHBrumb]

Double Action Only (DAO)

A. Liability concerns - reduced liability
B. Easier manual-of-arms
C. Consistency of trigger pull

Bobbed hammer is to reduce the possibility that the hammer will snag on clothing when being drawn.

That's about what I've said.

Also, Mas Ayoob had an article recently outlining a case similar to what Model520Fan is describing.

 

[FJC]

Addict, learn the DA trigger well and you will have little use for the SA. The late Jim Cirillo was a champion shooter that beat the competition firing DA when they were firing single. There is more of a surprise sear break. I killed a woodchuck about a month ago double action. Once you get it down, you won't go back.

Very true. I find that about the only time I use SA is when initially sighting in adjustable sights.

 

[18DAI]

Back when I was trained, double action was taught as the only way to shoot the revolver. I can't recall the last single action shot I took with a revolver.

The spurless hammer dosen't destroy my suit coat liners. My 3" 13-3 is DAO, spurless, and until I see threads about this, I never think twice about the topic. Regards 18DAI.

 

[7shooter]

I prefer DAO spurless revolvers for all the reasons mentioned above . In the carry permit classes I teach we only allow the students to shoot double action primarily because of the superior speed in shooting a self defense revolver. The only use for single action I have is when I am teaching my grandkids how to shoot and I want them to have success in hitting the target from the git go.

 

[Pepper]

Back when I was trained, double action was taught as the only way to shoot the revolver. I can't recall the last single action shot I took with a revolver.

The spurless hammer dosen't destroy my suit coat liners. My 3" 13-3 is DAO, spurless, and until I see threads about this, I never think twice about the topic. Regards 18DAI.

+1 and if I wanted to shoot single action, I would just buy one.

 

[Groo01]

Groo here
Your question is a good one bur requires some extra info..
What is the gun for?
How and where will you carry it on you?
How far will you shoot the target?
Unless your gun is just for close range and carried under a coat etc,
I find the dao quit limiting [ I have an SP101 dao ]
I have carried a "5 pointed star" for 30 some [telling my age] years,
and having carried my share of round guns and bottom feeders,
I think the double/single thing is overblowned.
If the shooting is good , it is.
If the shooting is not , " you in deep S***.
What you use and how you use it will only mater to you
as long as you HIT YOUR TARGET AND NOTHING ELSE......
If you have the will to shoot enough to do this with a dao Great..
If due to any number of reasons you can not and you need to cock the gun, well Do it----Hits count Misses don't
PS and hitting a bystander is a NOOOOO --NOOOO

 

[cmort666]

Writer and instructor Massad Ayoob likes them because it makes it IMPOSSIBLE for someone to plausibly claim in court that you "accidentally" shot your assailant after cocking the hammer.

 

[13.45]

an interesting discussion, although imo single-action has a very limited place in a personal defense situation...

 

[Broadside]

If you were to attend Frongsight's 4-day Defensive Handgun Course with a revolver, you would learn to present from a holster and shooter a controlled pair in under 1.5 seconds using double action only.

I beleive most schools teaching modern defensive handgun techniques teach to shoot revolvers using double action only.

There is no use for single action mode for a revolver in modern defensive handgun techniques. Hence, there is no need for single action in a revolver intended for personal protection.

That does not mean there is no need for a single action revolver. Several posts have already mentioned the applicability of single action mode.

 

[call me al]

While working fugitives in Chicago in the late 70's in soft clothes, I was partnered with several different C.P.D. tac guys on the west side, who all carried J frames with bobbed hammers in their overcoat pockets as a second piece, especially in the winter. Their theory was that it was easier to draw the revolver cleanly from the pocket if needed. They also felt that if they were forced to fire through the pocket there was less of a chance of it hanging up. A couple of them had the old "lemon squeezer" with a hammer shroud, ideal for their needs.

I used the method also after a while, as it was much easier to have a revolver "in hand" than have to sweep under the overcoat and draw. It was also nice during street interrogations, as you didn't have to be real obvious with the larger N frame displayed in public.

And as mentioned by the others in this section, as cops, we were never trained to fire single action anyway.

 

[bmcgilvray]

I use the single action mode constantly. I only have a single Model 642 that is DAO and don't much like it, truth be told. I'll use the revolver single action for self defense too if I deem it expedient despite current conventional wisdom.

No bobbed hammers for me.

 

[bubbajoe45]

A few points not already mentioned:

1) the difference with a cocked revolver is that in a real street confrontation (vs. on a range), the dump of Adrenaline into your bloodstream makes the 3 to 5 lb. SA pull MUCH easier than otherwise (and a stiff DA seems not so hard at all). The potential for an AD becomes much greater.

2) there is such a thing lying in the middle ground as a 'semi-bobbed' hammer which retains the SA notch necessary for cocking and has enough spur to control decocking with the thumb (you get the snag resistance without going DAO - arguably the best of both worlds). See photo below of cowtowncop's really cool 1917.

3) I think the original reason folks did this was for pocket carry and firing from the pocket as call me al describes.

4) in contrast to what bmcgilvray says, it has been demonstrated amongst cops that in real situations you revert to what you're used to doing (trained or not); so if you constantly fire SA at the range, you may find yourself in a situation with a cocked revolver and a bloodstream full of Adrenaline (a dangerous combination IMHO). It can become second nature to cock the hammer when shooting casually - if you carry, fight this urge and train yourself to shoot DA.

 

[gagunner 2]

My 649 does it for me.Smooth double action& single action if
needed.No snag hammer!