DAO Trigger Pull?

GypsmJim

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A friend just bought a brand new aluminum J-frame DAO snubby. It has no hammer spur and is a 2". After trying to shoot it she said it made her finger and hand hurt. I let her dry fire both my 67 and 19, and the comment was that the DA trigger pull was much lighter than hers. Unfortunately, I didn't get to test drive it myself.

I always thought that a DAO had a lighter pull than the DA pull of a SA/DA model. Could hers need lubrication, or is what she's experiencing normal?
 
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J-frame v. K-frame plus new v. old. A J-frame uses a coil mainspring instead of a K-frame's flat mainspring which makes a difference on the trigger pull. The K-frame will have a better trigger. Also, an older revolver's trigger will have smoothed out with firing and dry firing. A new trigger may be stiffer and heavier.

The combination will equate to her new J-frame having a heavier and less pleasant trigger than your K-frames.
 
A friend just bought a brand new aluminum J-frame DAO snubby. It has no hammer spur and is a 2". After trying to shoot it she said it made her finger and hand hurt. I let her dry fire both my 67 and 19, and the comment was that the DA trigger pull was much lighter than hers. Unfortunately, I didn't get to test drive it myself.

I always thought that a DAO had a lighter pull than the DA pull of a SA/DA model. Could hers need lubrication, or is what she's experiencing normal?

Might need lube as a coincidence, but due to some matters of geometry J frames have always had heavier trigger pulls than Ks. Some attribute this to the springs (coil in the J, flat mainspring in the K), but I do not think that is the exclusive reason. You will just never get that pull down to a comfortable level and maintain reliability.

There are two choices: (1) increase finger/hand strength; or (2) get a different firearm, such as a compact striker fired auto like the Shield or similar.

To increase finger strength, use a spring gripping device like they used to sell (you know, it looks like a "V" and you squeeze it). Turn it so it is an upright V, grip one leg with your hand and then use your trigger finger to pull the other leg. Repeat while watching TV each night until you can manage the trigger. Another option is alot of dry firing in DAO mode.
 
I'd say a combination of a trigger job and dry fire practice. I have compromised hand strength in my right hand and I did a trigger job/spring change on my 442. Even still my wife's 66-3 still has a smoother, nicer trigger but my 442 is now easier for me to use. I also do a lot of dry fire practice with both hands.
 
This is something I see just about every week when I am in my favorite local gun shop. Woman comes in to shop, interested in self defense, sales person steers woman to J frame revolver.

The J frame is a terrible choice for a new shooter, especially women. Sure, they look cute and you can get them with pink grips but neither of those offer any utility for a defensive tool. I would bet that an M&P9 would have been a much better choice, but that is my personal bias.

Why is the J frame terrible for women and new shooters (men too, anyone new to shooting), low capacity, multi-step reload process, short sight radius, small sights, stiff trigger pull and hefty recoil (in .38 or .357). All of those factors will make a new shooter form terrible habits like flinching and will have poor results at the range.

The J frame requires a heavy trigger pull for a number of reasons. Geometry of the hammer travel path, mass of the hammer assembly and the speed of the hammer assembly when it strikes the firing pin. With a short distance to travel and hard primers to stamp, the J frame trigger must be stiff to overcome the resistance offered by the heavy spring that insures ignition.

There is nothing wrong with your friend or her hand, the problem is with her choice in firearms. Time to go shopping again...
 
The J frame requires a heavy trigger pull for a number of reasons. Geometry of the hammer travel path, mass of the hammer assembly and the speed of the hammer assembly when it strikes the firing pin. With a short distance to travel and hard primers to stamp, the J frame trigger must be stiff to overcome the resistance offered by the heavy spring that insures ignition.

Well said Steve. It's a simple law of physics.
I see this question a lot, but I don't know why people seem to think they can make J-frames as smooth and light as a larger K, L, or N-frames. It simply can't be done and still expect reliable ignition.
 
This is something I see just about every week when I am in my favorite local gun shop. Woman comes in to shop, interested in self defense, sales person steers woman to J frame revolver.

The J frame is a terrible choice for a new shooter, especially women. Sure, they look cute and you can get them with pink grips but neither of those offer any utility for a defensive tool. I would bet that an M&P9 would have been a much better choice, but that is my personal bias.

Why is the J frame terrible for women and new shooters (men too, anyone new to shooting), low capacity, multi-step reload process, short sight radius, small sights, stiff trigger pull and hefty recoil (in .38 or .357). All of those factors will make a new shooter form terrible habits like flinching and will have poor results at the range.

The J frame requires a heavy trigger pull for a number of reasons. Geometry of the hammer travel path, mass of the hammer assembly and the speed of the hammer assembly when it strikes the firing pin. With a short distance to travel and hard primers to stamp, the J frame trigger must be stiff to overcome the resistance offered by the heavy spring that insures ignition.

There is nothing wrong with your friend or her hand, the problem is with her choice in firearms. Time to go shopping again...

The lesson in your excellent post is that the more experienced shooter in the family needs to take some responsibility in getting the less experienced shooter the correct firearm for where they are actually at experience-wise.
 
This is something I see just about every week when I am in my favorite local gun shop. Woman comes in to shop, interested in self defense, sales person steers woman to J frame revolver.

The J frame is a terrible choice for a new shooter, especially women. Sure, they look cute and you can get them with pink grips but neither of those offer any utility for a defensive tool. I would bet that an M&P9 would have been a much better choice, but that is my personal bias.

Why is the J frame terrible for women and new shooters (men too, anyone new to shooting), low capacity, multi-step reload process, short sight radius, small sights, stiff trigger pull and hefty recoil (in .38 or .357). All of those factors will make a new shooter form terrible habits like flinching and will have poor results at the range.

The J frame requires a heavy trigger pull for a number of reasons. Geometry of the hammer travel path, mass of the hammer assembly and the speed of the hammer assembly when it strikes the firing pin. With a short distance to travel and hard primers to stamp, the J frame trigger must be stiff to overcome the resistance offered by the heavy spring that insures ignition.

There is nothing wrong with your friend or her hand, the problem is with her choice in firearms. Time to go shopping again...
That's all true and I'm glad you brought it up. If a person chooses a snubby, they have to commit to all the practice it takes to become proficient with it. As I stated, even with a trigger job and spring change my trigger is still harder than my wife's factory K frame trigger. It's as light as I can make it and still keep it dependable.
 
Have her trade it in on a 357 LCR. I say 357 for the extra weight to mitigate recoil. It weights 17.1 oz vs 13.5 oz for the 38 LCR. It will have an awesome DA trigger (usually around 8 or 9 lbs). Don't have her shoot 357s in it though! Either that or have her trade it in on a 2.5" K frame.
 
I think we have winners in posts #6 & 7. I would not hazard a trigger job. And that with dry firing and practice, a person will learn to appreciate their pistol for what it is. Best of luck.
 
This is something I see just about every week when I am in my favorite local gun shop. Woman comes in to shop, interested in self defense, sales person steers woman to J frame revolver.

The J frame is a terrible choice for a new shooter, especially women. Sure, they look cute and you can get them with pink grips but neither of those offer any utility for a defensive tool. I would bet that an M&P9 would have been a much better choice, but that is my personal bias.

Why is the J frame terrible for women and new shooters (men too, anyone new to shooting), low capacity, multi-step reload process, short sight radius, small sights, stiff trigger pull and hefty recoil (in .38 or .357). All of those factors will make a new shooter form terrible habits like flinching and will have poor results at the range.

The J frame requires a heavy trigger pull for a number of reasons. Geometry of the hammer travel path, mass of the hammer assembly and the speed of the hammer assembly when it strikes the firing pin. With a short distance to travel and hard primers to stamp, the J frame trigger must be stiff to overcome the resistance offered by the heavy spring that insures ignition.

There is nothing wrong with your friend or her hand, the problem is with her choice in firearms. Time to go shopping again...

I would respectfully disagree with you sir.

Lets look at what is needed in a self defense gun. Forget wants and desires but only what you really need.

1. Reliability. It absolutely positively has to go bang when you need it to.

2. Safety. It absolutely positively cannot go bang when you don't want it to.

3. Simplicity. At 3:00 am when you half asleep or terrified beyond any horror move, with your heart pounding between your ears, can you still manipulate the firing controls.

4. Stopping power. If (god forbid) you ever do need to shoot a perp, you want a caliber capable of stopping an attacker. Now!

For a carry gun I would also add:

5. Size & Weight. It has to be small enough and light enough, that you actually have it with you when you need it.

The two things everybody wants to throw in there are:

Capacity. Forget Hollywood for a second and look at life in the real world. Your gonna need one, maybe two shots and the situation will be over.

Accuracy. While 2 inch groups at 25 yards is great, most self defense situations happen at much closer ranges. Like 10 feet or less and lets face it, were not talking about targets the size of prairie dogs here.

When you put aside your prejudices and look at it from a more logical standpoint, the revolver becomes a much more viable self defense weapon.

Jeff
 
+1 on the J frame triggers being heavier in DA than K's & the rest.

For me to match the accuracy of my Model 60 to that of, say, a K/M15 - I have to shoot the 60 in single action at 30' or less to match the M15 at 50' in Double action. The trigger pull is much heavier.

That said; though I don't own any of them - I have test fired the LCR, 442 and 642 and scored the exact same 87/100 with each at 7 yards. Odd that the scores were exactly the same - but they were. Even then, I didn't buy any of them...

Edit: I'm not saying that the LCR, 442 or 642 are not PLENTY accurate as CCWs - they are. I just like all-steel guns better and the weight (nor the hammer spur) bother me enough to switch to a hammerless.
 
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To the OP.

I would recommend dry fire practice. Every S&W revolver I've ever seen will drop at least a pound in pull weight after 1000 dry firing's. They tend to get much smoother as well.:cool:

Jeff
 
If it's a carry gun, maybe it has to be j-frame size or smaller-- for me anything bigger is too hard to properly conceal. The j-frame is easier to shoot well than something like a Ruger LCP (I own both). I'd say a trigger job, maybe even do it yourself for her. Plenty of video's on how to change springs & stone the rebound slide engagement surfaces.
Personally, although I prefer bobbed hammer I don't care for DAO. It's nice to have that single-action capability for plinking or trail-gun use.
For home defense, not carry, a k-frame revolver might be an easier-to-shoot alternative. If for carry, another option might be to trade it in on something like a Kahr-- although operating a semi-auto has it's own issues.
 
I would respectfully disagree with you sir.

Lets look at what is needed in a self defense gun. Forget wants and desires but only what you really need.

1. Reliability. It absolutely positively has to go bang when you need it to.

2. Safety. It absolutely positively cannot go bang when you don't want it to.

3. Simplicity. At 3:00 am when you half asleep or terrified beyond any horror move, with your heart pounding between your ears, can you still manipulate the firing controls.

4. Stopping power. If (god forbid) you ever do need to shoot a perp, you want a caliber capable of stopping an attacker. Now!

For a carry gun I would also add:

5. Size & Weight. It has to be small enough and light enough, that you actually have it with you when you need it.

The two things everybody wants to throw in there are:

Capacity. Forget Hollywood for a second and look at life in the real world. Your gonna need one, maybe two shots and the situation will be over.

Accuracy. While 2 inch groups at 25 yards is great, most self defense situations happen at much closer ranges. Like 10 feet or less and lets face it, were not talking about targets the size of prairie dogs here.

When you put aside your prejudices and look at it from a more logical standpoint, the revolver becomes a much more viable self defense weapon.

Jeff

Jeff,

I do thoroughly enjoy discourse and will happily entertain and debate your points.

1. Agreed. It is imperative that a tool works when required, period.

2. Agreed, again. However, most modenr firearms only go bang when the switch is thrown. Tort lawyers and civil courts have done their darndest to make sure that product liability suits are dreaded more than the end of the world (which is a personal thing, coming for each of us when our time is up on this planet).

3. Agreed, the trigger is about the only control I want to manipulate. I do not liek safeties, hence my love for revolvers. However, many autoloaders exist on the market that when loaded only require pulling (fine, squeezing of...) of the trigger to release ballistic answers.

4. Kind of! Handgun stopping power is a bit silly, as they are all equally bad. Unless one is deploying the 460 magnum, they are all pretty close in their abysmal performance. The difference is where the bullet is put and when. I would further postulate that the majority of stick up men consist of chicken **** and do not have the balls to face down a real fight. Exceptions do exist to my observation. They are rare, real resistance will often create a battle of wills in which one who is fighting for profit loses to one who is fighting for survival. This is not always the case.

5. Agreed, again. However, the difference between say a S&W 642 and a Kahr P9 or a Smith M&P9c is insignificant. The M&P and Kahr are easier to learn to shoot well and hold more ammo. It is also clear that ballistically clear that the 9mm performs better than the .38 special.

I carry a revolver for defense, and one of my two carry guns is a 642. However, I have thousands of hours of range time and manipulation experience with a defensive handgun. I recognize that a weapon like the 642 is for experts only, it is difficult to shoot well. The novice or casual user will be better served based on your points above.

Take the 642 and the M&P9c as equals, I have shot both extensively. The M&P carries more than twice the amount of ammo without a reloas, has a longer sight radius, has less recoil energy transmitted to the had and has an easier reload procedure.

Full disclosure, I carry a 642 mostly because I have trained with it and shot the piss out of it. I do not reccommend it to anyone, as it takes quite a bit of work to run it effectively. I am shifting to a Kahr P9 because it is the modern version of the 642 with more firepower and is easier to master. I understand that no sword will win a battle, the holder does...
 
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I would not compromise reliability by installing a lighter hammer spring. But I would install the lightest available rebound spring and lube the insides good and dry fire the heck out of it. This should result in a greatly improved gun.
 
Look for a Colt Cobra on the used market. While they can be pricey the trigger is a great deal smoother and lighter.
 
All very interesting I am sure, but two GUYS discussing what a WOMAN should carry? :)

Every time I have taken a woman to the range with a selection of pistols and revolvers to choose from, the J and K frames have always been rejected in favor of the striker fired 9mm mid-size or bigger type pistol, such as the Glock 19 or S&W M&P (not Compact).
 
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