Data variations

shil

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I'm preparing to work up some handloads for .357 Magnum. I want to use Hornady 158 grain JHP, Federal 200 magnum primers, Federal and PPU cases (not mixed), and Accurate #9 powder. I am seeking counsel on how to proceed with a start load with that bullet.
Hornady 9th manual: Start 9.7 grains, max 11.5, magnum primer, Frontier case, Python 8".
Lyman 49th manual: Start 13.4 grains, max 14.9, magnum primer, Federal case, 4" test barrel.
Hodgdon website: Start 12.4 grains, max 13.8, magnum primer, Winchester case, 10" test barrel.
What concerns me is the wide variation among the starting loads.
What would the handloaders here with superior experience choose?
I've been handloading for 50 years, still don't know everything, and probably never will!
 
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What concerns me is the wide variation among the starting loads.
When I was a newer handloader that would also cause me concern but over a few decades, I have certainly learned that this is very typical in this business. To put it simply, the way I understand things is that nobody's published load data is gospel -- rather, they do their testing, they choose what they wish to publish and if we are fortunate, they also tell us some of the pertinent facts such as the test platform, the ambient temperature, the primer they used and other tidbits like you have shown.

None of these is better than the others, none is any more valid than the others (unless you can make some distinction on your own about the companies that presented this data.)

What would the handloaders here with superior experience choose?
Superior experience? :D Not for me to judge, but I believe I'm somewhere north of 200,000 successful rounds loaded, likely 97% of them being handgun and I've been quite happy with how my experience has worked for me. Surely hundreds of thousands less than some competition shooters, but possibly more than the average tinkerer?

I would not choose one of the three you listed myself. I would go to a fourth source -- the Accurate published guide, edition 3.2.2, I would guess this particular guide to be somewhere around 10-12 or more years old, but I like it, I've used it a lot and I trust it. It says, in .357 for a jacketed Hornady XTP 158gr and AA#9:

START 13.5gr 1,293 fps
MAX 15.0gr 1,470 fps 44,900 CUP (PSI not listed)

6" barrel, Winchester WSP-Mag primer

We will both notice that this is quite close to what your Lyman manual published.

I've been handloading for 50 years, still don't know everything, and probably never will!
I'm a young-in' then, compared to your 50, I only just got started about 35 years ago.

I would certainly take in to account which firearm I would be building these for and I would also like to know WHAT is being asked from the ammo.

Were I making them for a S&W Model 60, I might be starting lower than if I were making them for a Model 28-2 or a Marlin lever action or for my Ruger 77/357.
 
I deleted my previous as I copied the wrong powder. AA9 and the 158 XTP has minimum of 12.4 gr and a max of 13.8 from Western Powders handloading guide. Pressure is 35,022 psi and velocity is 1255 fps.
 
You know what rule #1 is ... Start low and work your way up slowly looking for high pressure signs.

Start with 9.7 grs. AA#9 and a magnum primer and apply Rule #1 ...
Better Safe Than Sorry ...

Gary
 
With significantly less experience than some of the above I might "START " at the very low 9.7gr (but not more than 3 trial rounds) and work up to one of the other "Start" loads in .4 or .5 gr increments...

The problem with the initial load data the OP presented is that it doesn't indicate what the EXPECTED VELOCITY for those loads would be: if the 9.7gr is just above a hot 38 +P load perhaps Hornady is setting a floor (a minimum?) beneath which one should not experiment?

The real question is not as much where you want to start, but where you want to go: Hornady says their factory Custom 158gr XTPs are at 1250fps. Data from Hodgdon/ACCURATE/Western Powder's START load of 12.4gr is at 1202fps.

I have no idea what one should expect from that 9.7gr load, but would seriously doubt it approaches factory claimed velocities.:confused:

Cheers!

P.S. Underwood loads these at 1500fps!:eek:
 
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I'm preparing to work up some handloads for .357 Magnum. I want to use Hornady 158 grain JHP, Federal 200 magnum primers, Federal and PPU cases (not mixed), and Accurate #9 powder. I am seeking counsel on how to proceed with a start load with that bullet.
Hornady 9th manual: Start 9.7 grains, max 11.5, magnum primer, Frontier case, Python 8".
Lyman 49th manual: Start 13.4 grains, max 14.9, magnum primer, Federal case, 4" test barrel.
Hodgdon website: Start 12.4 grains, max 13.8, magnum primer, Winchester case, 10" test barrel.
What concerns me is the wide variation among the starting loads.
What would the handloaders here with superior experience choose?
I've been handloading for 50 years, still don't know everything, and probably never will!
You are overthinking it. Any manual starting load is safe, you simply work up from there looking for pressure signs. Every gun will produce a different velocity, if that matters, change powders if the one you choose is not a fast as you demand.

As to safety. There is only one place on the planet that a safety requirement is made as to a product, any product. If you buy Round Up to kill wees, or Dove to wash your dishes, or AA7 to load ammo, only the one company that creates it must file a pile of documents do make sure it is safe when directions are followed. The safety data sheets are what a manufacturer or importer files to ensure the feds that the product is safe.

Only the manufacturer is on the hook for that, none of the people like me or Nosler, or Speer or someone else who publishes recommended load recipes has that obligation.

So, if your question is about safety and starting loads, you do to the site that produces it. If if is a Hodgen powder, you go to Hodgen. If it is Alliant, you go to their site.

Hornady for example does not make powder, they are just giving their experience on one day at one elevation at one temperature with test barrel that will not fit your gun. So, their data will always be different. Not much chance of them being the same.

Accurate is Hodgen, you use their data, they are the only one on the planet that files the safety data sheet for that product. https://hodgdonpowderco.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/2022-Accurate-Double-Base-St-Marks-SDS.pdf

Read it for yourself.

Then you go to there reloading data, it will be consistent with their safety data. Plug in the closest bullet and there you are, the most accurate and safest data you can find. Other manuals are just adding their results from another day, another test barrel, another elevation, another temperature. They may be helpful they may not be, but they will not be safer or based on as much data and testing as the maker of that power. Your results are here:

1749569901602.png

Personally, I like H110 or W296, same powder, and the Hodgen site tests those as well, but their data is only as test data like any body that sells a manual. This is my choice. Both are within safety levels, I just like the 110 because at the same pressure, noise and recoil, the 110 is going to send the bullet a little faster, 1,591 fps vs 1,367 fps. Does it matter? Probably not.


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Just for your information. Always go to the company that is required by federal law to file the product safety data sheet, then go from there to create the best loads for your guns.
 
IMHO, Law-dog's most excellent post above only needs two clarifications...

At the 15.0gr H110 START load that 158gr XTP is rated as 1,418fps and actually LESS pressure (it is in CUPs: 28,600) than the #9's 13.8gr MAX of 1,367fps @ 35,000psi. Don't really know about the noise factor, but the H110's recoil SHOULD logically be MORE since the velocity is higher?

Cheers!
 
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