Date made?
- Thread starter pmanton
- Start date
Register to hide this ad
The 2nd Model was made from 1877 to 1891 up to serial number 108255. Your gun was made around 1887. Perhaps someone who tracks these guns can narrow down a date for you.
StrawHat
Member
I am not sure anyone can tell you when it was MADE. When it was shipped, maybe.
Kevin
Kevin
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2010
- Messages
- 1,083
- Reaction score
- 1,607
My spreadsheet has about 25 of the .38 Single Action, Second Models in it. Based on other known serial numbers and shipping dates, this one probably shipped in 1881 or 1882.
Mike
Mike
Shipping date
Very interesting 2nd Model. Blued guns are kinda scarce. Two questions:
Do the wood grips have a matching number?
It looks like a 4" barrel? If so that's also a scarce barrel length for these.
All the numbers match?
I have a lettered 2nd serial number 100,xxx shipped Feb. 1887.
Figure an average of 4-6,000 per year puts it right about where Mike's estimate. 1882-1883ish.
If it's all matching it might be worth a letter. Not your average configuration that's for sure.
Murph
Very interesting 2nd Model. Blued guns are kinda scarce. Two questions:
Do the wood grips have a matching number?
It looks like a 4" barrel? If so that's also a scarce barrel length for these.
All the numbers match?
I have a lettered 2nd serial number 100,xxx shipped Feb. 1887.
Figure an average of 4-6,000 per year puts it right about where Mike's estimate. 1882-1883ish.
If it's all matching it might be worth a letter. Not your average configuration that's for sure.
Murph
Well, let's talk about date made (as opposed to date shipped ) for a moment.
We've had it beaten into our heads since forever that the date made is not available/unknown/can't be known/etc., so forget about it!!
That very clearly ain't so! What is most certainly so is, while (almost) all shipping dates are known---and easily/quickly accessed, that doesn't apply to completion dates. If you're looking for secret stuff known only to a privileged few, this ain't it either----this is just plain, everyday common sense! (And it's backed up by first hand experiences where "made" dates have been provided to me----in writing---AND over the phone.) Common sense says when you're given a "made" date over the phone, that information is INSTANTLY available to your benefactor---never mind your benefactor is a walking encyclopedia---which, of course, is why you called him in the first place!
Now for some more common sense: While most shipping dates are readily available, the same very likely does not apply most completion dates. The letter writing folks have a BIG job---considering only the sheer number of letters they crank out---and the fact that every now and again they get behind---and WAY behind---never mind how streamlined their process might be. Now consider that while some completion dates are clearly known (and readily accessible), it stands to reason a goodly number are not---either not readily available, or not available at all---and they may very well not know which is which---quickly---and quickly is the name of the game!
I think I've said enough to make my point---that while shipping dates are almost always readily available, completion dates are not----or are for some stuff, but not for other stuff---and you AND the letter folks both need to have things quickly, conveniently, and accurately, rather than sometime and if it can be found.
Ralph Tremaine
In other words, all this is about what's practical instead of what's possible.
We've had it beaten into our heads since forever that the date made is not available/unknown/can't be known/etc., so forget about it!!
That very clearly ain't so! What is most certainly so is, while (almost) all shipping dates are known---and easily/quickly accessed, that doesn't apply to completion dates. If you're looking for secret stuff known only to a privileged few, this ain't it either----this is just plain, everyday common sense! (And it's backed up by first hand experiences where "made" dates have been provided to me----in writing---AND over the phone.) Common sense says when you're given a "made" date over the phone, that information is INSTANTLY available to your benefactor---never mind your benefactor is a walking encyclopedia---which, of course, is why you called him in the first place!
Now for some more common sense: While most shipping dates are readily available, the same very likely does not apply most completion dates. The letter writing folks have a BIG job---considering only the sheer number of letters they crank out---and the fact that every now and again they get behind---and WAY behind---never mind how streamlined their process might be. Now consider that while some completion dates are clearly known (and readily accessible), it stands to reason a goodly number are not---either not readily available, or not available at all---and they may very well not know which is which---quickly---and quickly is the name of the game!
I think I've said enough to make my point---that while shipping dates are almost always readily available, completion dates are not----or are for some stuff, but not for other stuff---and you AND the letter folks both need to have things quickly, conveniently, and accurately, rather than sometime and if it can be found.
Ralph Tremaine
In other words, all this is about what's practical instead of what's possible.
Last edited:
The shipping ledgers are where "dates" come from either in letter form, requests made in the SWCA ship date request forum or by telephone. Those records were maintained by the shipping department as I would guess a method of both inventory control and for billing and payment information.
Manufacture date records were maintained by the factory floor foremen and superintendents because most factory workers were paid by the piece and therefore numbers were necessary so they could be paid.
For whatever reason, the shipping date ledgers survived and were saved whereas the floor records were not. It is believed that some floor records have found their way into collectors hands and occasionally a true manufacture date can be located however, this is an exception and not a given.
As far as the ATF is concerned, the shipping dates are sufficient because they realize that a gun had to be made before it was shipped so they accept ship dates as manufacture date. The only time this becomes an issue is if you are trying to determine antique or C&R status.
As has been well documented over many years, guns were placed in a storage vault/cage and removed by a shipping clerk when a particular model gun needed to be shipped. The clerks did not remove these items in any serial number order as it was merely a piece of inventory going out in exchange for payment. Therefore a gun placed at the back of a shelf containing an earlier serial number than those in front could possibly sit for a year or more waiting for its final trip from the factory. This is why comparing one serial number to one nearby does not always give you an accurate date but in many cases it can.
There are a few models that we have learned had their frames all made prior to the accepted date for antique status and therefore even if shipped after that date are considered antiques but this only applies to a couple of models.
I hope that helps.
Manufacture date records were maintained by the factory floor foremen and superintendents because most factory workers were paid by the piece and therefore numbers were necessary so they could be paid.
For whatever reason, the shipping date ledgers survived and were saved whereas the floor records were not. It is believed that some floor records have found their way into collectors hands and occasionally a true manufacture date can be located however, this is an exception and not a given.
As far as the ATF is concerned, the shipping dates are sufficient because they realize that a gun had to be made before it was shipped so they accept ship dates as manufacture date. The only time this becomes an issue is if you are trying to determine antique or C&R status.
As has been well documented over many years, guns were placed in a storage vault/cage and removed by a shipping clerk when a particular model gun needed to be shipped. The clerks did not remove these items in any serial number order as it was merely a piece of inventory going out in exchange for payment. Therefore a gun placed at the back of a shelf containing an earlier serial number than those in front could possibly sit for a year or more waiting for its final trip from the factory. This is why comparing one serial number to one nearby does not always give you an accurate date but in many cases it can.
There are a few models that we have learned had their frames all made prior to the accepted date for antique status and therefore even if shipped after that date are considered antiques but this only applies to a couple of models.
I hope that helps.
OP
Yes the barrel is 4 inches and numbers match.
However the grips are not original but come from an earlier gun.
OP
Thanks much for the info. I did luck onto a box of 20 rounds of ammo dated Nov. 1890 to go with it.
Picking a nit, the shipping records contain neither billing nor payment nor inventory control information. I have copies of two pages of the shipping records, one from the 1890's, another from the 1940's. They are identical, containing six columns treating with, 1. Serial number. 2. The shipping case number, and shipping date. 3. The recipient and location. The remaining three columns are a repeat of the first three. Each page records such data for 100 items.
So much for facts, there's some more facts coupled with guesswork from hereon out.
Guns are placed in the "S&W Shipping Vault" upon completion (Fact). Guesswork: It stands to reason they are noted on a vault log (providing for inventory control) at that time. It also stands to reason they are logged out of the vault (providing for inventory control again, and for billing) once they've been sold. Billing for the sale creates an invoice, and presumably a periodic Accounts Receivable statement/document. Payment removes the invoice from an accounts receivable status to a paid status. End of guesswork---which doesn't involve much guessing---just plain old bookkeeping.
Ralph Tremaine
As an aside, both these shipping records pages treat with 1st Model Single Shots (and their daddy, .38 S.A. 3rd Model Revolvers) on the one hand, and with K-22 2nd Models and their daddy, M&P Revolvers on the other hand---since they share a serial number series in each case. Which is which is noted in the second column in the case of the K-22's---and in the third column in the case of the single shots. I throw that in just in case you've ever wondered why our letter writing folks go blind and age beyond their years.
So much for facts, there's some more facts coupled with guesswork from hereon out.
Guns are placed in the "S&W Shipping Vault" upon completion (Fact). Guesswork: It stands to reason they are noted on a vault log (providing for inventory control) at that time. It also stands to reason they are logged out of the vault (providing for inventory control again, and for billing) once they've been sold. Billing for the sale creates an invoice, and presumably a periodic Accounts Receivable statement/document. Payment removes the invoice from an accounts receivable status to a paid status. End of guesswork---which doesn't involve much guessing---just plain old bookkeeping.
Ralph Tremaine
As an aside, both these shipping records pages treat with 1st Model Single Shots (and their daddy, .38 S.A. 3rd Model Revolvers) on the one hand, and with K-22 2nd Models and their daddy, M&P Revolvers on the other hand---since they share a serial number series in each case. Which is which is noted in the second column in the case of the K-22's---and in the third column in the case of the single shots. I throw that in just in case you've ever wondered why our letter writing folks go blind and age beyond their years.
Last edited:
Boulder350
Member
My avatar has a pair of blued 38 SA 2nd models like yours. Both serial numbers are in the early 92,xxx range and have mottled grips. They letter as being shipped in January of 1884. One went to Chicago and the other went to New York.
I have a nickel 5" barrel gun with a swivel and serial 99,xxx that was shipped to Mexico in April of 1886.
Blued guns in this time frame usually shipped with the red and black mottled grips. The very early blued guns, before mottled grips were available, shipped with Walnut grips. Then they transitioned to the red and black mottled grips. Blued guns up to about serial number 56,000 wore the mottled grips with the block letters like the picture above. After that the blued guns wore mottled grips with the fancy Young designed logo.
I have a nickel 5" barrel gun with a swivel and serial 99,xxx that was shipped to Mexico in April of 1886.
Blued guns in this time frame usually shipped with the red and black mottled grips. The very early blued guns, before mottled grips were available, shipped with Walnut grips. Then they transitioned to the red and black mottled grips. Blued guns up to about serial number 56,000 wore the mottled grips with the block letters like the picture above. After that the blued guns wore mottled grips with the fancy Young designed logo.
Similar threads
