Derringers

[Buford57]

I carried a HS .22 mag as my "Onion Field" gun. I still occasionally drop it in my pocket for mowing the lawn. As smokey04 demonstrated it is an appropriate last ditch weapon. When I bought mine the only option that was in the same size category was a .25 or .22LR pocket auto. The Buffalo .357 was just out, but not as likely to survive a good frisking. The COP was a brick. As so many others have noted, there are better options today as a hideout and MUCH better as a primary.

If the Onion Field reference is obscure to you, get a copy of Joe Wambaugh's book of the same name. Unlike most of his stuff, it is non-fiction.

 

[Erich]

We had an incident here a couple years back when a legally licensed derringer was dropped and it went BANG in a public space and put the anti gun crowd into indignant overdrive.

IMHO guns that are just a little bigger, carry more shots, hopefully much safer and in most cases are much more accurate are far better to carry.
Hey whatever floats your boat, it's your decision, and for me I want bigger oars on my boat!

Regarding the first part of the post I quote, I'm aware of two accidental shootings with dropped NAA mini-revolvers. When I considered these together how frequently I'd find my NAAs to have somehow moved their hammer off the between-the-chambers notch even while riding in pocket holsters, I traded my pair off.

Regarding the second part, "Amen, brother!" I have my Bond Arms derringer, but it's really unusual for me to carry it for precisely the reasons you mention.

 

[BE Mike]

I carried a HS .22 mag as my "Onion Field" gun. I still occasionally drop it in my pocket for mowing the lawn. As smokey04 demonstrated it is an appropriate last ditch weapon. When I bought mine the only option that was in the same size category was a .25 or .22LR pocket auto. The Buffalo .357 was just out, but not as likely to survive a good frisking. The COP was a brick. As so many others have noted, there are better options today as a hideout and MUCH better as a primary.

If the Onion Field reference is obscure to you, get a copy of Joe Wambaugh's book of the same name. Unlike most of his stuff, it is non-fiction.

I did the same, back in the day. I hadn't heard of any real world experience with the effectiveness of the .22 mag out of the little HS, but Smokey's experience confirms my suspicions. It was comforting to have that little piece hidden on those long, lonely nights.

 

[pawncop]

Many years ago, I tried a derringer as a backup gun. I do not recall the brand, but do not think it was a known piece of junk. On my first shot it misfired. Upon recocking the gun both barrels went off. It was a 38 special and both going off was fairly unpleasant. I returned the gun to its owner, thanked him for the opportunity and have never handled a derringer again.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

I love resurrected threads!!!! Good job Professor Frink!

WELCOME BACK SMOKEY04/Nick! Glad your time at the Southeast Asia Tea Party was successful. Your choice of weapons proved dramatically correct and I'm proud to have read your story! Well done!

The High Standard "over-under" .22 magnum derringer is an iconic weapon, for the most part completely different from any other derringer ever made, and the only gun that I am aware of that when properly holstered becomes an NFA Class III item. Well, actually, it's the holster that the NFA "aow" aka "any other weapon", $5.00 taxed (and thus, arguably, it is registered, I guess) weapon. The gun itself becomes a "concealed gadget device" when placed into the Galco wallet holster.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/...i2EGQbo9MnpxfnFoet2DdslygNe4BclWwaAY6EX-iy998

I'll give you some references from Google - some lead to discussions on this Forum and some to other discussion boards, ATF notes, etc.:

https://www.google.com/search?site=...drc...0...1c.1.58.hp..2.14.1040.0.k-0vUhl0d-8

Other "wallet holster" that reveal grips, or reveal slides on small pistols, do not fall within the purview of the ATF restriction. If the gun is totally invisible, for all intents and purposes, as it is when fully enclosed in that Galco holster, it needs the $5.00 tax to be paid. If you're interested then skim through the pictures that are in the page with the holster I pictured above and you'll see a wallet rig on a Beretta Jetfire or 950BS single action pistol that comes pretty doggone close to making that gun invisible but, even then, the hammer does show. So I'd be uncertain about that one.

So the little High Standard .22 Magnum goes from a cute little hideout gun (great choice, again, Nick!!!) that is very hard to notice to a gun that is still hard to notice (though not quite as disappearing as it was for an unholstered one carried by Nick in his jacket) to a quarter of a million dollar felony if you're caught with one in a Galco wallet holster. I'd call that iconic!

I agree with Nick, it's not my first choice for a concealed carry gun, not when I can tote a 642 around all day in a pocket holster; however, on the other hand, I have two such derringers, and I have carried one of my High Standard .22 WMR derringers in a Galco wallet holster in the pocket of my bath robe for a very long time - so when I'm bopping around the house in skivvies and a robe I still have a gun available quickly - only no felony, guys, I paid the 5 bucks and I do have the NFA tax stamp!

I also have a very old Remington .41 rimfire derringer, nickel plated, gorgeous little devil, that I have never fired and possibly never will. I have fired Davis derringers, American and Bond derringers, all at cowboy action matches, and NAA teeny tiny derringers (I have the tiniest;. 22 Short only!), and for a host of reasons I would never carry one as my concealed carry handgun. They're bulky and shaped funny, unless you have them worked on they're very hard to cock, recoil with any good SD caliber is silly, and getting the second shot off after that first one is problematic at best - except at cowboy action matches with tricked out guns and light loads and then we all suddenly look like speed shooters. Bond suggests a .45 caliber derringer with .410 shotshells is a great snake gun - I prefer to avoid the snake but I'll settle for any revolver over the derringer. YMMV.


***GRJ***

 

[Erich]

Many years ago, I tried a derringer as a backup gun. I do not recall the brand, but do not think it was a known piece of junk. On my first shot it misfired. Upon recocking the gun both barrels went off. It was a 38 special and both going off was fairly unpleasant. I returned the gun to its owner, thanked him for the opportunity and have never handled a derringer again.

The Bond Arms stackbarrel derringers are really wonderfully made. I managed a gun store for two years between college and law school, and I can tell you that Bond Arms is the exception to the rule in that regard - your experience sounds closer to the norm.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

The Bond Arms stackbarrel derringers are really wonderfully made.

I agree with that statement completely. My dislike of them for SD purposes has nothing to do with their quality. They really are excellent.

***GRJ***

 

[ISCS Yoda]

I notice plenty of HS derringers offered for sale on Gun Broker. They have increased in value since I acquired mine. I think I paid $200 for each of them. One seller is selling a wallet holster and included this caveat that I felt compelled to share:

No Reserve Auction: High Standard Derringer Genuine Tan Natural Leather Wallet Holster As New. This Leather Wallet Holster Is In Excellent Condition. This Auction Is For The Leather Holster Only The Derringers Pictured Are For Illustration Purposes And Not Included In This Auction. The ATF Has Determined That A Derringer Inserted In This Wallet Holster Constitutes A Class III "Any Other Weapon" "AOW" Requiring Filing For A Special Tax Stamp And Background Check By The ATF And Certification Paper Work. The Ownership Of This Wallet Is Not Restricted, However This Wallet Is Illegal If A Gun Is Inserted Without Proper Paper Work. It Is A Violation Of Federal Law To Use This Item As A Holster To Carry A Gun Without A Federal Tax Stamp And Registration With ATF. This Is A No Reserve Auction Meaning The High Bidder Wins This Auction. You May Use "BUY NOW" Option For "Free Shipping". Answer All Questions Before Bidding. The Winning Bidder Is Required To Supply Payment Within Seven Days Of Auction Close. ATFWALHOLA2013126

Another seller is included a ******* Leather (Galco's original name) wallet holster with the derringer but he fails to mention the ATF issue - I am surprised that Gun Broker has not spotted that issue.

***GRJ***

 

[smokey04]

Thank you all for the "high praise" on my all expense paid tour of the land of the stinking rice paddy. I felt that the HS was a good choice at the time. There are so many alternatives these days I wouldn't consider a .22 Mag. I've not studied on it but I think my first inclination now would be the Colt .380 Mustang PocketLite[I have two of the originals]
That history lesson from 44 years ago should have noted that it was the last of 3 tours in the RSVN. It ended on 11 Feb. 1971for me with a spectacular helicopter tree landing! Two hundred feet later[helicopters do not "hang" in trees] the aircraft was up side down and facing backward from the way it went in. My Crew Chief/ door gunner and my co-pilot were both badly injured. As the smoke cleared after nearly 7 hours of ugliness with the soldiers of an NVA Battalion, our unit came in and recovered us. The hero of that battle was, and shall ever be, Saint John M. Browning. A beat up, issued ,Rem-Rand 1911A1 saved ALL the bacon that day! My three,including me, and one co-pilot from another downed aircraft are still alive and raising cane as old " Air Cavalry Scouts".If interested, go to Jouster.Com forums and look for "Service Stories", "Where were you on 1 Feb. 1971" it is a recounting of the heroism I posted for my Crew Chief. Sorry, I don't know how to post a link. Thanks again ,and all of you please know how much we appreciate the welcome given our returning troops these days. Us'n old farts know how important that is. Nick

 

[marinevet]

SMOKEY04……what a story….I'm glad you came out ahead on that
event in your life, welcome home……I carried a .38 derringer somewhere around 35 years ago…..there were a couple times I tried to fire it……just to see how it would work, and it didn't…..I got rid of it……..been thinking about a small deep cover gun, that is not really a derringer, but is a 2 shot……not looking to highjack this thread, but anyone have any experience with the double tap?

Semper Fi!

 

[Keith44]

20 some odd years ago I carried a couple of different derringers, .22 Magnum and a .22 LR. Both were fun guns, but knowing what I know now I cannot recommend a derringer as a primary CCW. A 45 or 38 caliber as a deep concealment second back up maybe, but not as a primary weapon. I'd rather just have a knife. You're gonna be that close anyway, and you get more opportunities with the knife than the two shot derringer.

 

[suckersrus]

I carried a HS .22 mag as my "Onion Field" gun. ....
If the Onion Field reference is obscure to you, get a copy of Joe Wambaugh's book of the same name. Unlike most of his stuff, it is non-fiction.

Buford, thanks for the term I was struggling so hard to find.

I have spent lots of time and money on guns and training and carry a full-size gun every day.
My wife will tell you I can frequently be heard saying, "If I can't take my gun, I ain't going."

But every so often I find I must go somewhere without my sidearm. So out come the Onion-field-guns:

They are not really derringers but 1 shot is better than none and 5 shots can come in pretty darned handy.
The NAA has killed several critters including a deer that was injured by a car.

 

[Buford57]

Quote:

Other "wallet holster" that reveal grips, or reveal slides on small pistols, do not fall within the purview of the ATF restriction. If the gun is totally invisible, for all intents and purposes, as it is when fully enclosed in that Galco holster, it needs the $5.00 tax to be paid. End Quote


Sounds like a job for an Exacto knife.

 

[vito]

I find it amusing that while there is seemingly endless discussion about why a j-frame 38 with ONLY 5 rounds is inadequate as a carry gun, some people are obviously comfortable carrying only 2 rounds in a derringer. On another forum I was picked on for saying that my now favorite EDC is a Ruger LC9s with 8 round capacity, by folks who think anything less than about 15 round capacity is foolishly risky. Personally, if I am carrying, I see no advantage to using a 2 round, exposed hammer, wildly inaccurate firearm when in the same size I could easily carry my LCP with 7 rounds. Or in a slightly larger capacity, but still easily concealed, carry my 642 or my LC9s. Maybe derringers are nice as a novelty in one's collection, but that's about as far as I am willing to credit these impractical guns.

 

[pjpjr]

How about some opinions on using a derringer as a CCW. Either the classic style or one of the modern designs. Something about .38 cal.
I realize only 2 shots, but how do they compare in dependability with a revolver, or subcompact 9MM semi auto.
Thanks!
Steve W

I currently own and carry a Bond in (two bbls) 45/410 and 38/357. This gun is perfect for me as I use it when out on my property working. Beautifully made and utterly reliable. I most often carry the 357 bbl 2.5" as it is pretty compact but stout to fire!
Well made gun with a specific purpose for me = WIN!

 

[Gunhacker]

I notice plenty of HS derringers offered for sale on Gun Broker. They have increased in value since I acquired mine. I think I paid $200 for each of them. One seller is selling a wallet holster and included this caveat that I felt compelled to share:

Quote:
No Reserve Auction: High Standard Derringer Genuine Tan Natural Leather Wallet Holster As New. This Leather Wallet Holster Is In Excellent Condition. This Auction Is For The Leather Holster Only The Derringers Pictured Are For Illustration Purposes And Not Included In This Auction. The ATF Has Determined That A Derringer Inserted In This Wallet Holster Constitutes A Class III "Any Other Weapon" "AOW" Requiring Filing For A Special Tax Stamp And Background Check By The ATF And Certification Paper Work. The Ownership Of This Wallet Is Not Restricted, However This Wallet Is Illegal If A Gun Is Inserted Without Proper Paper Work. It Is A Violation Of Federal Law To Use This Item As A Holster To Carry A Gun Without A Federal Tax Stamp And Registration With ATF. This Is A No Reserve Auction Meaning The High Bidder Wins This Auction. You May Use "BUY NOW" Option For "Free Shipping". Answer All Questions Before Bidding. The Winning Bidder Is Required To Supply Payment Within Seven Days Of Auction Close. ATFWALHOLA2013126



Another seller is included a ******* Leather (Galco's original name) wallet holster with the derringer but he fails to mention the ATF issue - I am surprised that Gun Broker has not spotted that issue.

***GRJ***

Without seeing a pic of the holster being referred to, it can't be said whether or not it's one that is covered by NFA, or if the Seller's disclaimer is accurate.

I take any "ATF regulations" quoted in auction listings with a grain of salt unless the regulation number or a link to it is cited.

My experience as a C&R FFL holder in CA has shown me that many citations of firearm laws, are an interpretation by the seller, which is usually inaccurate. A classic example is the wholesale refusal by many FFL's to sell a C&R firearm to CA because they think they are covered by the same restrictions placed on modern firearms... not so.

Simply being a Wallet style Holster that fully encloses a firearm so it doesn't "print" does not automatically make it an NFA item.

THIS is what the BATF lists for Wallet Holsters under the NFA.... the key determining characteristic being the holster has hole to fire weapon while in the holster.

To stay on topic... I feel having a derringer is better than having nothing at all, but that's based on my years of experience of using one in Cowboy Action Shooting and feeling that I could accurately use it. But I sure didn't like relying on it solely as my primary form of CCW, I did so only until I was able to afford and find something better suited.