DESTROYED MY K38 TODAY/ update #139/ range report post #148

[MelvinWalker]

For non-reloaders shooting factory loaded ammo, not so much.

Does that make sense? Can you see my point? Even if it is a viewpoint that is different from your own?

Good summation of where I am. If reloading were a requirement for owning firearms, I wouldn't own any...I just do not like tedious small tasks for tedious small gains. Some people do like that and I get that. That's why we have forums and magazines devoted only to reloading.

I always did well in my career shooting factory ammo at work and in my free time. A few times, I shot quite well at work and it was all with issued wadcutters and Model 64's.

Also, think of the tens of millions of rounds that have been shot in warfare by all countries since the invention of smokeless powder.....99.999999742954% have been safe in wartime and training with that country's issued ball ammo.

The folks needing the chronographs were the quality control inspectors at Winchester/Olin, not the soldiers using the ammo.

 

[alwslate]

So sorry to hear about your K-38. If it was me, I’d be on the phone with Norma customer service. Since this was factory ammo, they should accept responsibility and take care of this by hopefully offering to replace the gun plus pay for your aggravation. I think you have a good case here.

Wake up you are obviously dreaming. Norma is going to accept responsibility for a damaged revolver without any proof a single round of their ammo caused it and replace the gun plus award you a cash payment for your suffering? Sure they will

 

[BillyMagg]

I'm going to beg to differ

The K on the butt indicates K38.

There is a lot I don’t know, the OP did not mention if he had hard extraction on the fired cases. All we know is his comment that it was a “hot round”. Hot rounds do crack forcing cones. I would be curious to know if the cylinder is ringed in anyway. The fact the OP says the cylinder turns half way and sticks could be due to the “destroyed yoke” or an expanded cylinder.

You would think that FMJ would not create over pressures in a 38 Special by itself. If the round was over pressure, the most probable cause was too much powder in the case.

A 1952 S&W was made of softer steels (probably a plain carbon steel), and the steels of the period had more residuals and crud in them than good steels made today. Old steels are weaker and more prone to failure. Not knowing the pressures of the kaboom round, we don’t know if a modern S&W would have survived this in any better condition.

It is most unfortunate that the OP’s K38 kaboomed. Not much he can do other than spend big bucks on a new yoke, barrel, and possibly cylinder, if he wants it to be functional. If the costs of that work exceed the cost of a new S&W 38 Special, I would not recommend doing it.

Someone will want the grips, the rear sight, the sideplate and internal parts. Maybe the cylinder if the cylinder is not bulged.

I will agree it was very unfortunate the OP's pistol "ka-boomed", but, I'm going to disagree that a "modern" revolver would fair any better.. These old Smith's are gorgeous, mechanical art,, and its always sad to see one broken... Find you a good smith and replace the barrel and yoke,,, there really can be no doubt that the "hungarian" ammo is the culprit here?

So let the autopsy continue,, that is a serious overpressure of the forcing cone, no modern steel would have withstood that.. you may have to shop for a yoke that will fit the frame as it should, good luck sir... but please, don't part it out!

 

[Wheeler44]

Hmm. This is very interesting. Would not a squib load bulge the barrel, provided it made its way past the forcing cone, and a subsequent round followed? I could see forcing cone damage if the squib made it only into the forcing cone. I am glad demo56 was not injured, and what if any tests, will determine.

 

[SPGUSN]

The talk seems to be trending toward simply replacing the (obviously) damaged parts and expecting all to be well with the world. This may or may not be the case. That much pressure is likely to have stressed your frame, perhaps in ways that are not obvious to the untrained eye. I would not dream of repairing it myself nor giving it to "Bubba the Parts Changer" who has made a bunch of ARs to repair it. If I couldn't get it to a trained gunsmith who is a machinist with at least basic metallurgy skills, I wouldn't dream of having it repaired at all. To do the damage done, there was a bunch of serious, explosive pressure exerted on that frame! JMHO, but I value my body, aged though it is too much to take wild gambles on damaged guns.
Green Frog

True, this is definitely not a parts swap moment, and that is not what I was implying. I would have already had other gunsmiths on the phone with this...at the minimum, I would be going through Kuhnhausen's shop manual and be mic'ing absolutely everything on this. But if this is to be saved, then you will still need new replacement parts to work with, and there will be a LOT of fit and finish.

 

[RebCop]

These parts a barrel and cylinder are still relatively inexpensive compared to other S&W parts like N Frames. It would be a relatively easy fix.

 

[steelslaver]

Actually any K frame barrel and cylinder can be fit to that frame (if it is still dimensionally correct) with very little fitting. Even K frames made 100 or more years apart can interchange cylinders and barrels . There are some yoke changes and ejector rod changes but that's about it.

 

[Milleman]

I've been shooting for 60 years and counting. 20 of those years included PPC competition, the last 5 years as a Distinguished Master. I started reloading in 1979 and have reloaded a few hundred thousand very accurate rounds for competition, plus thousands of combat rounds and 30-06 hunting rounds. I took 11 deer with my hunting loads, plus one with a Glock 17, a head shot from 22 yards w/o using the sights(natural point).
I've never owned or used a chronograph on anything. I did visit a friend one time who had one and used it on his loads while I was there.
With all due respect, at 77, I will pass on investing in one this late in life.

 

[Tom S.]

It allows the powder to spread out and burn much quicker. Think of it like this...A square bale of hay will burn fairly slowly if you light the end of it...Cut that bale in half and spread it out and light it and it will go up like a candle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wrc0SxFGDuY

It has been close to 30 years since I read anything on Secondary Explosion Effect (S.E.E.). Even back then, a possible cause was as cited in the video, a primer igniting the surface of an undercharged instantaneously rather than the 'normal' controlled burn of lighting at the primer hole and working forward.

The problem was, at least back then, no one could purposely reproduce the effect, though many, including powder manufacturers tried. One person, Col. G. O. Ashley, kept reducing loads until the bullet literally fell out the end of the barrel on the rifle he was using (a 25-06), and never experienced the phenomenon. Even today, I don't know if anyone has proven beyond a doubt that this is the sole cause.

That aside, normal target loads for .38 special are often close to or within the range of the powder charge being low enough so that when held horizontally, the powder is below the primer firing hole. This is especially true of fast burning powders like Bullseye, and I have read that these powders burn so fast, point or type of ignition have no bearing on their resulting pressure. Another line of thought is that S.E.E. only becomes a problem when very slow burning powders, such as those used in large rifle cases, are ignited in this manner. The video, somewhat reinforces this belief by using a rifle shell rather than a smaller straight wall pistol caliber. Still, I have yet to see conclusive proof that S.E.E. can be caused in this manner, and if someone can direct me to a website that offers such proof, I would appreciate it. In the meantime, I am going to re-read the book, titled Firearms Pressure Factors by Wolfe Publishing.

 

[glenwolde]

If the barrel was clear, I got nuthin'. That is the oddest revolver failure I've seen. Split/cracked forcing cones are fairly common but not to that over-the-top extreme.

 

[glenwolde]

I am one that does not believe Detonation/S.E.E is real in handgun cartridges (rifles, maybe). Plus, all the failures blamed on it (rather than the actual cause: a double charge) were catastrophic failures with cylinders split in half and detached top straps. Not this weird split forcing cone. I guess we have to put this down to a metallurgical failure.

 

[Drm50]

I’ve only seen this once. It was a High Standard 357 mag stubnose. Gun looked new and owner said he doubted he had shot more than 200rds.
It had same type damage as OP but also fram was warped and forcing cone had all cracks radiating to left side.
Wolfing on ammo company for what is almost 99% a mechanical failure will get you nothing.

 

[ms]

I think the easiest way to remove the barrel would be to use a lathe. Put the barrel in a 4-jaw chuck, get it pretty close to concentric with the bore. Turn the barrel to a smidge under minor thread diameter, from the frame to maybe an inch out. Screw the barrel in, once it is turning nicely cut the barrel and screw it through. If the barrel doesn't want to turn or won't clear the frame you could collapse the flared part with pliers or a clamp.

 

[2152hq]

For a quick and dirty check to see if the frame has been bent in any direction,,put a 'range rod' down the bore and see how it lines up with the chamber throats.

We know that even in a so called good condition shooter the chambers aren't always perfectly allaigned. But if the simple check shows some way off mis-allaignment,,the frame w/bbl attached is bent.

Take it from there if you want to 'save it'. I have my own ideas what could be done but won't post them here.

The damaged forcing cone is different in that the splits appear at 12,3,6 & 9 o'clock.
I don't know it that has anything to do with any production/mfg'r methods used. I can't think of any.
Possibly the bbl was off the gun at some point in it's 73 yr life and someone clamped the smooth unthreaded breech end in a 4-jaw chuck in a lathe to do something? to it and whent a bit overboard with the chuck key. Fracture cracks in the metal perhaps? Then over time they get worse and finally that thin portion lets go.
Unless you've owned the gun since new and can account for everything ever fired through it and everything ever done to it,,anything is possible.

The K frame 38/357's aren't noted for being the strongest in that area when heavy loads re used in quantity. , and who knows what's been shot thru it in the past.

Wouldn't an over load or the mysterious SEE have damaged the cylinder by at least bulging it ? It appears to be OK in the pics.

All is not perfect. It's a machine made of metal parts with an unkn complete history of use (I assume). Ammo made of multiple componets assembled on machines
Things fail.

 

[stansdds]

I am one that does not believe Detonation/S.E.E is real in handgun cartridges (rifles, maybe). Plus, all the failures blamed on it (rather than the actual cause: a double charge) were catastrophic failures with cylinders split in half and detached top straps. Not this weird split forcing cone. I guess we have to put this down to a metallurgical failure.

I've not seen detonation either, at least not in straight wall cartridges. Double charges of fast burning powders will blow up a revolver, but that damage is typically the cylinder wall letting go. Barrel damage in revolvers is either from an obstructed bore or a serious chamber to bore misalignment.

 

[mtgianni]

I wonder what magnaflux would show when the barrel is removed. I would be interested to see if there were any small frame cracks.

 

[TJm15.38]

Regarding RUAG small arms ammunition, it is now a combine of several European ammunition manufacturers, including Norma and RWS, which is owned and controlled by Beretta. No reason to be paranoid.

Thanks; gives me some reassurance. I bought the two boxes because I thought Norma brass would be good for reloading. Just haven't gotten around to shooting it yet.

 

[TJm15.38]

Not that it proves anything but I ran a box of that through a 586-3 last week without incident.

Thanks; I'm sure the stuff is OK. Plan to use the Norma brass cases for reloading.

 

[shocker]

If it was a Norma factory round, I would presume this was not in any way the ammunition’s fault. A highly overloaded round would be expected to split the cylinder and possibly rupture the topstrap.

Agree, since that's what resulted with a highly overloaded round for me. A burst cylinder and bent top strap.

 

[SlamFire]

The K prefix indicates a Target sight K frame. This one is a .38 Combat Masterpiece.

My bad.


Another possibility is the primer caused the blow up. Take a look at Earl Naramore's book : Principles and Practice of Reloading Ammunition. There are five chapters on primers, the characteristic of primers, composition of primers. He also discusses pressure variations due to primers, and compositional differences in primer cake due to random variance. Primer cake is a mix, there will be non-homogeneity. Sometimes that results in pressure spikes. I recall Mr Naramore stating there were over pressure ammunition lots that stopped being over pressure by a simple change of primer lot. I was surprised by the numbers on pressure variations just due to primers alone, and his sections on over ignition and under ignition.

I do think the most probable cause was too much powder in the case, but over pressure due to a primer is another possibility.