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Dingbats
- Thread starter Hawg Rider
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Those ' Dingbats' were originally called 'Feet' in the die cutting trade.
Used on roll dies to allow the die impression to walk onto the surface first before the initial letter/number impression.
That meant for the 'Foot/Dingbat' to establish the impression depth for the lettering/numbers to follow.
It kept the very first letter/number(s) from being extremely deep impressions while the continued roll marking would then lighten up in depth as more of the character(s) was in contact.
There are only a very limited amt of actual roll die characters in contact with the surface being imprinted as it's an tangent. Plus a smaller dia roll die can limit the contact even more making impression dept easily deeper on first contact.
The 'Foor/Dingbat' at the end of the impression serves the same purpose. It keeps the final character or two from being impressed too deeply. The Foot allows the die impression the walk off of the surface last and will take the final pressure, not the last character or two.
It all just makes for a nicer looking roll marking.
It was also used in lining up the roll die on the marking apparatus as well. The 'Foot' is easiest to see and center visually with a guide line to line the die up.
Once the machine was set and locked in, the 'Foot' did the job described above.
Back when, roll die marking 'machines' were mostly a hand operation machine.
Place the part in the machine, Lock in place in the pre-set guides and then pull the roll die over the part to mark it.
Do not back the die up over the part,,it will never exactly match the original 'pull' in the same place. That's where you once in a while see a double strike. They get by QC and out the door. It's just a factory.
Forward to today,,the Dingbats on dies are not really needed.
Roll dies are machine controlled in their positioning and application.
The pressure upon the metal is constant so there is little real need of the small foot to avoid deeper depth imprint at the beginning and end of roll marked lines.
Sometimes the marks are still used for classic looks.
Dies are just about all machine made now. A few hand cut dies are done still but to find someone still cutting them is rare, especially someone who will cut a roll die with a line of lettering/words/numbers.
Single stamp die cutters are still around, but the machines can do it quickly and that's where the industry goes and gets them.
At one time the engravers in the factorys spent much time cutting and re-cutting/sharpening stamps and dies.
Every marking on every tool, machine, tag, & firearm etc had to be done with a stamp or die. They were all hand cut dies and stamps.
A couple of the engravers ran side bisinesses of Stamp & Die Shop outside of the factorys they were employed by that specialized in just that.
Used on roll dies to allow the die impression to walk onto the surface first before the initial letter/number impression.
That meant for the 'Foot/Dingbat' to establish the impression depth for the lettering/numbers to follow.
It kept the very first letter/number(s) from being extremely deep impressions while the continued roll marking would then lighten up in depth as more of the character(s) was in contact.
There are only a very limited amt of actual roll die characters in contact with the surface being imprinted as it's an tangent. Plus a smaller dia roll die can limit the contact even more making impression dept easily deeper on first contact.
The 'Foor/Dingbat' at the end of the impression serves the same purpose. It keeps the final character or two from being impressed too deeply. The Foot allows the die impression the walk off of the surface last and will take the final pressure, not the last character or two.
It all just makes for a nicer looking roll marking.
It was also used in lining up the roll die on the marking apparatus as well. The 'Foot' is easiest to see and center visually with a guide line to line the die up.
Once the machine was set and locked in, the 'Foot' did the job described above.
Back when, roll die marking 'machines' were mostly a hand operation machine.
Place the part in the machine, Lock in place in the pre-set guides and then pull the roll die over the part to mark it.
Do not back the die up over the part,,it will never exactly match the original 'pull' in the same place. That's where you once in a while see a double strike. They get by QC and out the door. It's just a factory.
Forward to today,,the Dingbats on dies are not really needed.
Roll dies are machine controlled in their positioning and application.
The pressure upon the metal is constant so there is little real need of the small foot to avoid deeper depth imprint at the beginning and end of roll marked lines.
Sometimes the marks are still used for classic looks.
Dies are just about all machine made now. A few hand cut dies are done still but to find someone still cutting them is rare, especially someone who will cut a roll die with a line of lettering/words/numbers.
Single stamp die cutters are still around, but the machines can do it quickly and that's where the industry goes and gets them.
At one time the engravers in the factorys spent much time cutting and re-cutting/sharpening stamps and dies.
Every marking on every tool, machine, tag, & firearm etc had to be done with a stamp or die. They were all hand cut dies and stamps.
A couple of the engravers ran side bisinesses of Stamp & Die Shop outside of the factorys they were employed by that specialized in just that.
hdfinder47
Member
Since they are not currently used I can see future added value to serious collectors for "dingbat" guns. Or maybe not.
to use dingbats or not....that is the question!
Coming from a machine shop/welding background I know that 2152hq hit the nail on the head with his above explanation of the tool and die business. Craftsmanship long gone now days, but looking over my "new-to-me" Savage Model 340 E Series in 22 Hornet that I just accumulated, shows exactly where "dingbats" or some sort of alignment and depth really assist, and what happens when they are not used.
So...the pic of the "Savage Arms Westfield Mass" barrel marks have the two long leader lines left and right of the roll stamp which I presume are dingbats (feet) marks. Depth and legibility appear consistent. Same with the stamping on bottom of magazine floorplate...I assume the two holes right and left of 22 HORNET perform the same purpose.
Now look at the actual serial number also roll marked into the receiver.. the actual number is B 849422, but as you can see the top half of the B is missing entirely (not just a light strike, I can't find the top half even with a magnifyer), and the top half of the last two "22's on the right are very lightly done.
Any of you in the trades that have had to "sign" your work with welders stamps know that it is near impossible to line them up and stamp the same depth with individual hand stamps and ball peen hammer.
2152HQ Thanks for the detailed description...NOW I understand S&W craftsmanship in days gone by and appreciate it more than ever.
Coming from a machine shop/welding background I know that 2152hq hit the nail on the head with his above explanation of the tool and die business. Craftsmanship long gone now days, but looking over my "new-to-me" Savage Model 340 E Series in 22 Hornet that I just accumulated, shows exactly where "dingbats" or some sort of alignment and depth really assist, and what happens when they are not used.
So...the pic of the "Savage Arms Westfield Mass" barrel marks have the two long leader lines left and right of the roll stamp which I presume are dingbats (feet) marks. Depth and legibility appear consistent. Same with the stamping on bottom of magazine floorplate...I assume the two holes right and left of 22 HORNET perform the same purpose.
Now look at the actual serial number also roll marked into the receiver.. the actual number is B 849422, but as you can see the top half of the B is missing entirely (not just a light strike, I can't find the top half even with a magnifyer), and the top half of the last two "22's on the right are very lightly done.
Any of you in the trades that have had to "sign" your work with welders stamps know that it is near impossible to line them up and stamp the same depth with individual hand stamps and ball peen hammer.
2152HQ Thanks for the detailed description...NOW I understand S&W craftsmanship in days gone by and appreciate it more than ever.
Attachments
Alk8944
US Veteran
A "dingbat" was known as a printer's ornament and was used for things like ending a chapter or a section in a book. S&W used a dingbat that appears to be a Maltese cross with only three arms, top, bottom and left or right depending on placement. In the case of S&W usage the term "finial" is probably a more correct definition of the mark. Either way they are/were purely decorative and always seem to me to be an elegant touch to the caliber marking on S&W revolvers.
Simson-Suhl
US Veteran
My USFA 71/2" barrel 45 Colt and the 71/2"" 22WMR /22lr revolver have ding bats in the shape of +. I also believe the 71/2" barrel Colt SAA may the same style.
A finial is something entirely different: it’s a decorative object placed on the top of something like a flagpole, building dome, metal fence post, etc.
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2152hq’s post is awesome… captured a lot of esoteric knowledge clearly. Thanks!
More dingbat trivia:
The term“dingbat” as used for myriad ornamental type designs, didn't begin until around 1921 and is almost certainly based on the “dingbat” meaning of “a nameless object.”
When applied to a person "dingbat" came from "dingus" or "dingy" added to "batty" to be used for “a silly, eccentric, somewhat dim person”, i.e., of Archie Bunker fame.
The term“dingbat” as used for myriad ornamental type designs, didn't begin until around 1921 and is almost certainly based on the “dingbat” meaning of “a nameless object.”
When applied to a person "dingbat" came from "dingus" or "dingy" added to "batty" to be used for “a silly, eccentric, somewhat dim person”, i.e., of Archie Bunker fame.
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