Do you need a hammer block in a modern S&W?

[TacticalReload]

I really wish I had a junker S&W wheelgun that was beyond repair for functional purposes that I could test to see what it actually would take to set it off without the hammer block in place.

I'm assuming that everyone here is smart enough NOT to walk around with the revolver cocked-and-unlocked. So we're talking about a hammer down at rest and a live round in the chamber. I'd be willing to do the testing with a MIM hammer since that might increase the likelihood of some metallurgic issue that would lead to breakage. This is a good one for Mythbusters... unless someone has a POS they are willing to donate. I'm an FFL and would pay postage for you.

 

[Skeeziks]

Skeeziks you lose.
My friend's daughter was shot and killed when she dropped her Colt 1911. She had disengaged the grip safety.

Why would anyone in their right mind disengage the grip safety on a 1911?
There is nothing to be gained by it...there's no reason for it.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

To answer the question, Behlert was wrong. It's pretty rare, and I believe that the hammer has to actually break for it to happen, but the Navy (and presumably S&W) believed that it actually did happen at least once, dropped on a steel deck, I believe. We now have further testimony on several cases of what seems to be about the same thing.

 

[adweisbe]

Why would anyone in their right mind disengage the grip safety on a 1911?
There is nothing to be gained by it...there's no reason for it.

Because it doesn't engage when you go to shoot it? Series 80 FTW.

I still know a lot of people that do it. But it's in the rules for USPSA that all safeties must be working.

USPSA rules do not require that the grip safety work. This has been confirmed by NROI several times.

8.1.2.4: With respect to Rules 8.1.2.1 and 8.1.2.3, the term "safety"
means the primary visible safety lever on the handgun (e.g. the
thumb safety on a "1911" genre handgun). In the event of doubt,
the Range Master is the final authority on this matter.

APPENDIX C2 Match Chronograph and Equipment Set-up, #47: The Chrono Officer will inspect the competitor's handgun and report any
failure of the following to the Range Master:
a. Proper function of the handgun's primary safety mechanism(s)
b. Safe condition and operation
c. Compliance with the requirements of the declared Division

On a somewhat unrelated note, if I had my way all my S&W revolvers would be Centennials. It is unfortunate that the 242 style revolver never went anywhere.

 

[Skeeziks]

Because it doesn't engage when you go to shoot it? Series 80 FTW.

That doesn't make any sense.... When you place your hand on the grip to shoot, the grip safety automatically gets depressed. If one disengages the mechanism, the safety still gets depressed when you grip the gun.

 

[TacticalReload]

That doesn't make any sense.... When you place your hand on the grip to shoot, the grip safety automatically gets depressed. If one disengages the mechanism, the safety still gets depressed when you grip the gun.

Sure it makes sense... it all depends on your hand and grip (small or large hand, overly high grip, etc.). It's very possible to accidentally NOT engage the grip safety. That is the main reason for the invention of the "memory bump" on them... to make more positive contact.

 

[Skeeziks]

... it all depends on your hand and grip (small or large hand, overly high grip, etc.).

That's just it.... Your grip should be exactly the same every time you draw. If it's not, then your shots are going to be all over the target.
Now, if we're talking about a self-defense situation...then maybe that's a different story.

 

[TacticalReload]

That's just it.... Your grip should be exactly the same every time you draw. If it's not, then your shots are going to be all over the target.
Now, if we're talking about a self-defense situation...then maybe that's a different story.

Competition shooters love getting as high a grip as possible on their guns... it helps control recoil by getting the bore as low as possible relative to the grip. Plus they don't want to get a strong-hand death grip on the gun for obvious reasons. Both of these conditions are not condusive to reliably activating the grip safety.

Plus certain variations in grip safeties mean that some of them need to be more depressed than others. They work by having a little protrusion that physically blocks the back of the trigger bow from moving rearward when you pull the trigger. When pressed, they pivot upward and out of the way. Depending on the size / shape of that part, some of them need to really be fully depressed to get themselves out of the way of the trigger. It doesn't stop the hammer from falling (or the firing pin from moving forward in non-Swartz safety models (ie Kimber)). It only keeps the trigger from being pressed.

I'm certainly not advocating the removal of grip safeties either. However, for competition purposes, I would say that it's not that big a deal. Very few mainstream guns not based on the 1911-design have grip safeties... the Hi-Power doesn't and that's a single action pistol carried cocked-and-locked.

 

[stantheman86]

The hammer block in S&W revolvers doesn't affect anything.......I don't see the big deal with leaving them in. In an effort to shave .3 lb. off the trigger pull people are taking out a safety device.

Sure the odds are overwhelmingly low that you will ever drop the revolver directly on the back of the hammer on a loaded revolver, and then have the hammer and rebound slide "bump" shear or break off, and still allow for enough force to detonate a round........ but what does it hurt to have one more guard against Mr. Murphy?

I almost want to find some nonfunctional beater, rust bucket truck gun Model 10 or some such, get it working enough to lock up on a chamber, and then whack the hammer with a mallet to see if I can ever get it to fail without the hammer block in. Or put some primer-only empty cartridges and drop the gun onto some concrete right on the hammer to see if it will fail.

Perhaps if it weren't for the poor sailor back in 1943 S&W's would still have the flimsy spring-loaded hammer block. I have a pre-S Victory and it does have the old spring loaded block that is part of the sideplate.

 

[ol timer]

That revolver also had the hammer spur removed. Does the revolver need to land on its hammer spur to fire without that hammer block? Or does it not make a difference?

IMO, removing the hammer spur increases the surface area exposed to a forward strike.

 

[stantheman86]

There have been reports of the cast HB's breaking in some J-frames. Apparently S&W has gone back to the forged and twisted HB's now.

I am going to have to pop the plate off one of my older Taurus boat anchors, and also one I have from the 90's to see what kind of hammer block they have......IIRC the new Taurus guns have transfer bars.

The HB is one of those parts some people may think is "extra crap" that they don't need inside the action, but one brain fart and a gun dropped on the hammer and you'll be glad you left it in there! If you drop it and someone at the range gets shot, you won't have a leg to stand on in court when it's found out you disabled a safety feature.

 

[brucev]

When I get ahold of a smith & wesson with the strain screw backed out a half turn or two, the next thing I check for is the hammer block. Very common with the lethal "do-it-yourselfers" mentioned above.
Often the two go together.

??? Is there a problem with backing off the strain screw? I have done this to obtain a less hard double-action on the revolvers I frequently use. Nothing else in any of the revolvers has been altered. Does this pose a problem/risk? Sincerely. bruce.

 

[wheelgun28]

??? Is there a problem with backing off the strain screw? I have done this to obtain a less hard double-action on the revolvers I frequently use. Nothing else in any of the revolvers has been altered. Does this pose a problem/risk? Sincerely. bruce.

If your not getting light primer strikes (ftf) your ok mostly. However if you use the gun for other than target shooting. It may not function when you need it most!!!

 

[wheelgun28]

Removing safetys, never a good idea. Manufactures dont waste money adding unneeded things because its fun. Yes they can be forced into buy other forces...

Its funny I had my car at the mechanic the other day, he told me that the seat belts and air bags arent needed. So he removed them for me. He said that cars didnt have them years ago and they worked just fine. Also that the likely hood of having an accident is quite high. So all that extra stuff was just in the way and made the car more cumbersome to use....

each to their own I suppose...

 

[Dpris]

The strain screw was intended to be snugged down tight & LEFT there. It is not a trigger pull lightener. Backing it out can & does reduce the amount of energy transmitted to the primer by the hammer, resulting in light primer hits.

One common problem with potential for disaster in backing it out is that it can continue to back itself out farther under continual shooting, and may fail to fire just when you need it to.

Don't back it out! Snug it & leave it.
Denis

 

[badguybuster]

I've seen several 1911's with the grip safety removed. There have been a few magazine articles over the past couple years centering on this issue. I am not advocating one way or the other, but I have always liked the grip safey. It just doesnt feel like a 1911 without it. No doubt that a lawyer would have a field day with it. In fact, novaks, produces a product called "The Answer" with eliminates the beavertail. You can see at their website.

 

[ol timer]

??? Is there a problem with backing off the strain screw? I have done this to obtain a less hard double-action on the revolvers I frequently use. Nothing else in any of the revolvers has been altered. Does this pose a problem/risk? Sincerely. bruce.

It's not recommended, but common enough that several grip makers relieve the area in front of the strain screw to allow it.

If you only plan on using the revolver for target practice or competition, I suggest finding the amount of back-off that works reliably for your needs, measure this amount by the number of screw turns divided by the thread pitch and remove this amount from the tip of the screw. Then tighten the screw down so it sets tight on the shoulder. YMMV

 

[bountyhunter]

Not without the trigger fully pressed, however. Right?

The rebound slide bump keeps the hammer from coming forward unless the trigger is pulled. However, it's remotely possible to drop the gun on the hammer spur on concreete from a sufficient height to break the hammer in such a way that the RB slide safety won't stop it anymore. hence, the other safety bar is there.

 

[bountyhunter]

??? Is there a problem with backing off the strain screw? I have done this to obtain a less hard double-action on the revolvers I frequently use. Nothing else in any of the revolvers has been altered. Does this pose a problem/risk? Sincerely. bruce.

Be sure to use blue loctite on the screw if you do this or it will walk out over time and you will get misfires.

 

[RightWinger]

Just out of curiosity, I have been on this forum over 2 years and still am not quite sure what "YMMV" means....can someone enlighten me please? Sorry, not up on all this computer lingo.....ha ha