Do you train for hand-to-hand?

I think I know what you are driving at but would you care to elaborate?
Basically it's about mental condition to avoid hesitation or freeze.
It happens in combat to trained soldiers, it happens to LEO, even though they are specifically trained to be in dangerous situations.

Experience in real deadly dangerous(not controlled "studio/ dojo/gym) fluid situations are where people who have "been there" are generally less likely to hesitate or to hesitate for shorter periods, before applying what they have been trained to do.
We must analyze our muscle movement prior to execution, of course (shoot/no shoot situation) but "freezing" is a different thing.

The OP was asking as an individual who isn't a LEO, or an active soldier or (assumption here) combat veteran. Too many are lulled into thinking they'll automatically go to a joint lock or perform a block, but when real fear and adrenaline happens, they freeze. They were trained to pull their punch, they were trained to "not really" gouge an eye, because "we" just don't behave like that.

That's all, it's not meant as an indictment of training, by any means. And I'm betting you knew what I was talking about.
Thanks for asking.:)
 
They were trained to pull their punch, they were trained to "not really" gouge an eye, because "we" just don't behave like that.
This is one of the greatest difficulties of training for self defense; reality. We don't really want to hurt our training partner. This is why, in my school, all punches/kicks/elbows are real. This is why I say what you do in the school is what you'll do on the street. If you train by missing, you'll miss on the street.

We usually start with learning how to use a block. Then, once a student shows that they can use the block properly, I punch them and they block it. I tell them, "If you don't block it, you will be punched, hard." To date, they have all blocked the punch. Once a student sees that it can work, their confidence goes up dramatically. That allows them to relax a little and then the real training begins.
 
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I'm more interested in making a profession of Personal Security for younglings and high-profile wives (me being a big ol' tall white woman, nobody would suspect me of having the training.) Reaching for my conceal-carry would be the last resort (as I was trained to do.) I'm more interested in classes that would enable me to better protect my charge. Any tips or suggestions where I might find that sort of training?

Regards,
CJ

There are several programs out there specifically aimed at women. Two that come to mind are Fight Like A Cornered Cat & Fight Like A Girl. If personal security is more your goal there is a lot that goes into that type of training beyond the physical aspect.
 
affirmation of respect

I have the utmost respect for martial artists, and if my posts sound less than so, I apologize.
I'd say I got off on type or standards of training and generalized.

My fault.

I would be hypocritical to say I do not owe my survival to some very simple but very effective training by a former Marine/ retired L.A.P.D. detective who lives in Mexico. It's a very good place to get real life training. Being disarmed there for my first year ('09) I noticed adrenaline production was greater when I was not carrying.....

And for the posers....good luck.
 
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I have the utmost respect for martial artists, and if my posts sound less than so, I apologize.
I'd say I got off on type or standards of training and generalized.

My fault.

I would be hypocritical to say I do not owe my survival to some very simple but very effective training by a former Marine/ retired L.A.P.D. detective who lives in Mexico. It's a very good place to get real life training. Being disarmed there for my first year ('09) I noticed adrenaline production was greater when I was not carrying.....

And for the posers....good luck.

And that there is the problem with some martial artists. They ASSUME. I've seen so called martial artists get embarrassed. And I've seen some that I wouldn't confront with a gun.

Like many firearm instructors, there are just as many martial arts instructors that only teach what they know. And they don't know squat.

Above all martial arts is way of life. "Posing" as a martial artist is a good way to get hurt.
 
You guys are all hitting all around my OP questions. I'd say we'd all agree it can't hurt to get some self defense training besides with your gun (and in fact this has motivated me to look into some locally...hope I choose a good instructor!) But the bottom line is always that you cannot prepare for EVERYTHING. Situational awareness and avoidance is the first step, but it cannot be relied upon exclusively or we would not need to carry or train at all.

Despite what we may all say on internet forums or with buddies, the reality is it is very hard for anyone, especially those of us with no real world training or experience with violence (ie not LEO or military) to know exactly how we will respond when that switch is flipped and we are suddenly and unexectedly called upon to respond violently.

I'm all for having as many tools at my disposal as possible.

I guess one of these days I'll be looking for a course entitled "Defending Yourself with your Walker".
 
I am 63 years old and have studied Judo, Shotokan Karate, Taekwondo and Aikido. I also suffer from emphysema. The reality is you cannot learn to defend yourself from a book or a dvd alone. You must put the time in practicing. As you practice various tactics visualize an opponent, unless you have a training partner. If you are in aphysical attack you do not have time, normally, to pull a gun. Nor do you have time to pull if someone is rushing you, they will close with you too quickly for you to pull. If all else fails go to your back with your feet toward the opponent, assuming only one, This position is very defensible and it will allow you to pull your weapon. Random thoughts from one of the old guys...
 
I guess one of these days I'll be looking for a course entitled "Defending Yourself with your Walker".

You think you're kidding but there are self defense classes that focus on seniors defending themselves with canes and such.
 
You guys are all hitting all around my OP questions. I'd say we'd all agree it can't hurt to get some self defense training besides with your gun (and in fact this has motivated me to look into some locally...hope I choose a good instructor!) But the bottom line is always that you cannot prepare for EVERYTHING. Situational awareness and avoidance is the first step, but it cannot be relied upon exclusively or we would not need to carry or train at all.

Despite what we may all say on internet forums or with buddies, the reality is it is very hard for anyone, especially those of us with no real world training or experience with violence (ie not LEO or military) to know exactly how we will respond when that switch is flipped and we are suddenly and unexectedly called upon to respond violently.

I'm all for having as many tools at my disposal as possible.

I guess one of these days I'll be looking for a course entitled "Defending Yourself with your Walker".

You are correct. No matter how hard we try we cannot prepare for everything. But we can elevate our situational awareness. We can be flexible so that we can at least react in a manner that allows us to protect ourselves. If we appear as sheep then we will be treated as such. How we carry ourselves, the look on our face, our body language is important. If we appear weak and defeated then we will become victims.

The only sure way to react appropriately each and every time is to get quality training and practice. This doesn't mean that you need to become a black belt. And in my experience belts are awarded to soon causing people to think they can handle any situation. And many instructors can't or don't instruct people how to incorporate the use of a firearm in their self defense training. So such training may be hard to find.

Instructors such as Mike Janich, Kelly McCann, Masaad Ayoob, Dave Spaulding and several others are the premier instructors in close quarters combat with or without a gun and or knife. But such training can be expensive.

Thinking ahead can help too. When you approach a door, a building, round a corner, walk to your car etc...... Think ahead. What would I do if a bad guy step out? Is my gun hand free? Can I hit him with whatever I may be carrying? Can I position the grocery cart between him and me?

This is what I call "flexible thinking". Instead of "what if" scenarios and trying to prepare for everything, be flexible and think flexible. Consider your surroundings and prepare yourself. Hope that makes sense.:o
 
But the bottom line is always that you cannot prepare for EVERYTHING.
This is the fundamental truth of self-defense. No situation you find yourself in on the street will be exactly what you train in the school. So, put as many tools in your bag as possible.

And in my experience belts are awarded to soon causing people to think they can handle any situation.
This is also true. The blame for this lies squarely on the shoulders of greedy instructors.

Like it or not, the modern day colored belt system was developed to make money.

At first, students in Japan lived at the school. Because of the nature of the training, they were poor and had only one set of clothes or uniform. It had a simple belt to hold it all together. The uniform was white. The symbology is that white represents emptyness. As the student worked, they never washed their belt so, it got dirtier and dirtier. The dirtier it got coincided with more experience in the school. Ultimately, with enough time, it would turn black. Of course nothing ever turns really black. More on that later.

Enter the marital arts in the US. In order to distinguish more experienced students from new students, the brown belt was introduced. So, a student would start with white, representing emptyness or lack of knowledge. Then they would get 3rd Brown, then 2nd Brown then 1st Brown, then Black.

As time passed, instructors realized that they could charge more money for each belt test. The color system was born. Schools introduced requirements for each belt color and there was a monetary value that went with it. So, students were pushed to test because it meant more money to the school. Some schools have "upgrades" within each belt color. I know one school that has 5 upgrades for each belt and ten belts.

The way it should work is each belt level represents a certain amount of knowledge, but not necessarily skill. A lower ranking individual may be better at certain things. The higher ranking student may lack a certain ability, but had attained the knowledge commensurate with that level.

In my school there are six belts; Orange, Purple, Blue, Green, Brown and Black. White isn't a rank because everyone is a white belt. We say, "Attaining the level of Black belt doesn't mean you've mastered anything. You've simply earned the right to begin to learn."

Based on the old way, the dirty belt starts to become thread bare and the dirt starts to flake away exposing new patches of white. This represents the fact that we are always learning. Even the most seasoned master still has patches of emptyness. The more we know, the more we know we don't know.

My greatest fear as an instructor is that I'll send a student out into the world thinking he can defend himself when in fact he cannot. So, I work hard to avoid that. I strive to teach quality movements, but more than that, quality thought processes.
 
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I'm 50 yrs old. I train 5 days aweek . some boxing for stamina .5 katas, escrima drills & some roman -Greco techniques. I also have fought in the ring -In dojos & many bar & street fights. I also do ollympic Lifts.
What I find is most people can't believe this is happening to them?
My experience shows me to react quickly & be willing .I used to drive dancers to various clubs & pickthem up. In Pa ,NY& NJ. so I have had to fight & also talk my way out of things. With this knockout game I am very aware of my surrondings.
 
Not quite Rastoff,
Around 1930 the Kodokan created a new belt to recognize the special achievements of high ranking black belts. Jigoro Kano chose to recognize sixth, seventh, and eighth degree black belts with a special obi made of alternating red and white panels (kohaku obi). The white color was chosen for purity, and red for the intense desire to train and the sacrifices made. The colors red and white are an enduring symbol of Japan, and they have been used in Judo since Jigoro Kano started the first Red and White Tournament in 1884. The kohaku obi is often worn for special occasions, but it is not required to be worn at any time and the black belt remains the standard for all the yudansha ranks. In 1943 the Kodokan created the optional red belt to recognize 9th and 10th degree yudansha.
Other colored belts for students who had not yet achieved black belt originated later, when Judo began being practiced outside of Japan. Mikonosuke Kawaishi is generally regarded as the first to introduce various colored belts in Europe in 1935 when he started to teach Judo in Paris. He felt that western students would show greater progress if they had a visible system of many colored belts recognizing achievement and providing regular incentives. This system included white, yellow, orange, green, blue, and purple belts before the traditional brown and black belts.
The Judo practice uniform and belt system eventually spread to many of the other modern martial arts, such as aikido and karate, which adapted them for their purpose. Karateka in Okinawa didn't use any sort of special uniform at all in the old days. The kyu/dan ranking system, and the modern karategi (modified judogi) were first adopted by Funakoshi in an effort to encourage karate's acceptance by the Japanese. He awarded the first shodan ranks given in karate to Tokuda, Otsuka, Akiba, Shimizu, Hirose, Gima, and Kasuya on April 10, 1924. The adoption of the kyu/dan system and the adoption of a standard uniform based on the judogi were 2 of the 4 conditions which the Dai-Nippon Butokukai required before recognizing karate as a "real" martial art. If you look at photographs of Okinawan karateka training in the early part of this century, you'll see that they were training in their everyday clothes.
Promotion requirements for each rank vary according to the sensei and the national organization that you are affiliated with. There is no worldwide standard for each rank, although it is generally accepted that a blackbelt has had many years of practice...
 
When I was 20 and the Army had me down in FT. Polk, LA in infantry training, I just couldn't understand all the time spent in hand to hand combat training after they had just handed me this beautiful black M16. I figured as long as I kept it cleaned, maintained, and well fed with .223 I sure as hell didn't need to know how to maim some guy with my hands. And, I was right. Well, 46 years have passed and I still feel the same way. Keep my firearms clean, maintained, well fed, and, oh yes, close by and leave all that kung fu **** to the young guys.
As for Sgt. Miller's theory on training, I agree. Murphy's Law of Combat: The OP PLAN goes out the window the second the first round goes whizzing by.
Very good discussion on this topic, though. Good information provided by all.
 
Rock Of Aging

I'm 69 and I go to a fitness club to maintain whatever's left of my youth. There, I get to see guys half my age and seriously bulked up, working out. I think to myself that there's no way I could take one of these guys on and expect to win. As others have said, I too have a knee replacement and a bad back, together with everything else afflicting us seniors.

Yes, disparity of force, age, size, numbers, and sex, alone or in combination, can provide justification for deadly force. However, if you live in a blue state, it's probably better to allow yourself to be beaten until your own mother can't tell if you're face up or down in the hospital bed, before drawing and firing.
 
I'm 69 and I go to a fitness club to maintain whatever's left of my youth. There, I get to see guys half my age and seriously bulked up, working out. I think to myself that there's no way I could take one of these guys on and expect to win. As others have said, I too have a knee replacement and a bad back, together with everything else afflicting us seniors.

Yes, disparity of force, age, size, numbers, and sex, alone or in combination, can provide justification for deadly force. However, if you live in a blue state, it's probably better to allow yourself to be beaten until your own mother can't tell if you're face up or down in the hospital bed, before drawing and firing.

With all due respect, there is a huge difference between going to a fitness club... and training in hand to hand combat. An untrained baby boomer confronted with a young attacker is in serious jeopardy. But a untrained young attacker against a boomer - properly trained, SHOULD regret his choice of victim.
 
I'm 45
6'2"
248 lbs
Work out (strength)
Run stairs for stamina
Wife wants a punching bag to improve stamina, aim, coordination, etc

I am called "big" by friends and family but when I go places, my heads on a swivel as if I was a 98 lb kid.

I watch everything and am very cognizant of my surroundings

Don't know how I would handle a fight........don't want to know, have a good friend who has trained in hand to hand. I would like to learn his routine, technique. I love to learn and really admire those who traing to protect themselves.

Just want to live in peace

Hope I never have to prove my fighting or shooting skills in a real life situation.

Just try to be prepared in case I do by staying strong, healthy and able to handle my firearm.

SD
 
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I'm 70 & took knife classes with Bram Frank....became one of his instructors! His invention is a knife called the "Gunting"....it's a folder....with a ramp.....you have a choice in wheather you want to cut or just cause pain!I'm retired....sometimes I am unable to carry my gun ...but I always have a Gunting.A number of Leos now carry them!
Jim
 
Can't run and couldn't survive a physical fight in one piece. Fortunately I live in a castle doctrine, stand-your-ground state.

Shoulda, I am in the same boat you are. I used to be able to grapple with the best of'em, but not any more.

I lived in Hopkinsville for a while, Kentucky laws sure sound better than what we've got here in the People's Republik.
 
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