Does the serial number look odd to you on this Victory model?

[MelvinWalker]

I was perusing a local auction and I came upon this 4inch US Navy marked Victory model. However, the stamping of the serial number on the butt doesn't looks like Victory models I usually see.

Does the serial number font look odd or is this normal on some variations of the Victory? It is "US Navy" marked on top strap and serial V58091.

 

[Alk8944]

The number on the butt has been obliterated at one time and later re-stamped with the wrong font for S&W. As a result the gun is technically contraband and illegal. The butt number is the only number on the gun that is legally recognized as the guns SN since any other component could be replaced during repair operations.

Does the butt number match the other SN locations on the revolver? It should be on the back of the cylinder, back(toward the cylinder) of extractor, on the yoke and on the bottom flat of the barrel. If the other locations all all match the ATF may overlook the re-stamped butt SN.

Otherwise that is a quite good, apparent original finish, Victory model. What a shame!

 

[MelvinWalker]

The number on the butt has been obliterated at one time and later re-stamped with the wrong font for S&W. As a result the gun is technically contraband and illegal. The butt number is the only number on the gun that is legally recognized as the guns SN since any other component could be replaced during repair operations.

Does the butt number match the other SN locations on the revolver? It should be on the back of the cylinder, back(toward the cylinder) of extractor, on the yoke and on the bottom flat of the barrel. If the other locations all all match the ATF may overlook the re-stamped butt SN.

Otherwise that is a quite good, apparent original finish, Victory model. What a shame!

I am only going by the pics shown through the sale....However, upon checking another pic of the rear of the cylinder, (shown here), the serial number on the cylinder does match the butt. Maybe it was an arsenal repark post-war that went a little aggressive on the sandblast which forced them to restamp? It is for auction through an FFL dealer auction with many other firearms of all sorts mixed in the sale.

 

[80sgyrene]

Back in the day it was legal to restamp serial numbers. No idea if these old guns are “grandfathered” by the atf.
In most cases I would be very leery, but I think I would be ok with that one. Of course YMMV.

 

[Truckman]

Back in the day it was legal to restamp serial numbers.

The ATF restamps I've personally seen were all prefaced by the letters "ATF"...Maybe others know of different legitimate restamps...If I was buying I would want a letter from BATFE verifying the butt S/N......Ben

 

[cmansguns]

Navy Victory, stamps, fonts, LOA

OP says it is Navy marked on top strap. If the Seller has a photo of the Navy mark it should look like my attached photos. I sold this Victory but while I was the caretaker I had it Lettered and you can see the details for yourself in attached pdf copy.

Serial number style and font should look the same.

I have always understood that there were (still are??) many fakes out there in the wild.

 

[MelvinWalker]

If you look close at the second picture, you can see the gun clearly shows the US NAVY stamp on the left top strap.

I emailed the auction to let them know of potential issues, but they have yet to email me back.

 

[dtune]

Is this something that can be appealed to the BATFE after the fact, or would the entity who re-marked the serial number have to seek approval prior to the change?

 

[22hipower]

As I understand it, it is, was anyway, legal to re-stamp the SN if the original was removed during a refinish or otherwise damaged. There is no way to know when this was re-stamped and since all the SNs match I don't think the ATF or anyone else will have a problem with it. The re-stamped SN certainly wouldn't bother me if I otherwise wanted the gun.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

 

[MelvinWalker]

I still want the gun if legal. However, it would require a several hundred mile drive, but even if the refinish and restamp was done by the Navy and is legit and legal, I am sure it will affect value.

In other words, what may have been a $800 gun, might drop a couple of hundred I would think.

 

[2152hq]

The 'Manufacturers Applied' ser# on the frame is the only legal Ser#.
Any other number on the frame in it's place is not and makes the firearm fall into the cavern of doom.
That Fed Reg alive since 1938 that prohibits possession or transfer of a firearm with the 'Mfg'rs ser that has been removed, altered or obliterated'.

Most every State also have a Law stating the same. Many with extras such as the same penaltys for removing, altering the mfg's name,address, guns Model, Caliber, sometimes even inspection and proof marks. It varys State to State.

BATFE is very touchy on this subject in my exerience as an FFL for 50yrs.
They always brought up the subject on Compliance checks.
I was even told to halt progress on an engraving project where the ser# had been gold inlaid. The Agent suspected I had violated the Reg.
I had committed the sin of touching the ser# characters & numbers by inlaying each in 24k gold. (Like I was the first person to ever do that)
I was instructed to stop work on it & wait untill he checked further.
He did, but I was given an OK to procede and that inlay work was not a violation.
A Grande PoohBah made a decision somewhere and I was spared my decade in Leavenworth. Thank You Lord!
That was in the late 80's.

Ive had a acouple guns come thru with 'ATF' prefix ser#'s on them. The customers said the guns had been stolen, then recovered.
They had their mfg ser# ground off/defaced. The orig number was able to be lifted and orig owner(s) contacted for return. But not before each was held for court procedings.
When returned, each had the new ATF ser# proudly stamped on them,,not the orig ser# which was obviously known.
Maybe the ATF# was to signify that the gun was now ;cleared; inspite of still showing it's crude removal of the orig ser#'s.

Gunsmith/FFL's cannot change location of a ser# for any purpose w/o permission of the BATF Tech Div.
Sometimes for alteration/conversions, ornamental /engraving, the ser# is in the way.
One example is the addition of a lanyard ring on a S&W. Right thru the Ser#.
You had to ask by way of a Form to get permission to move the ser# and to what new position.
The permission was generally granted within ATF ser#/mfg guide lines.

But as the yrs went by, that permission began to be harder and more difficult to get. Delays got longer and longer. Some negative responses returning.

I still see guns for sale with ser#'s removed, or removed and planted somewhere else on the gun.
I worked around people that used to remove them and change them all the time to further the value of upgraded guns. They didn't think anything of it actually.

If you just ask any ATF Agent about a restamped Ser#, you will likely get a different answ from as many as you put the question too...like so many other things

With the Fed Law being what it is..
It's hard to explain away a ser# on the frame that is obviously not the one put there by the orig manufacturer.

 

[MelvinWalker]

OK, well that seals it for me....I'm out on this one...I appreciate it to everyone's' wealth of info.

 

[Heinz]

OK, well that seals it for me....I'm out on this one...I appreciate it to everyone's' wealth of info.

Smart choice. If you are buying a gun for a collection, what I learned collecting Lugers is Never Buy a Gun You Have to Explain. For a shooter, there is a lot more flexibility. I like shooters but even for shooters I would say never buy a gun you have to explain to the BATF

 

[cmansguns]

Probably not worth the "hassle" at any price

I still want the gun if legal. However, it would require a several hundred mile drive, but even if the refinish and restamp was done by the Navy and is legit and legal, I am sure it will affect value.

In other words, what may have been a $800 gun, might drop a couple of hundred I would think.

I sold the genuine US Navy Victory pictured above exactly 1 year ago for $700 shipped. I had been asking more ($850 shipped) but there were no takers, not even any tire kickers. That's the beauty of this Forum....members and casual lookers will let you know if you are too high, and as soon as you hit a sweet spot..the "I'll take it" comes right away.

So....in my opinion if a genuine, Lettered example sold for $700 shipped and insured..then for sure the gun up for auction would be maybe $600 tops and then only IF some sort of provenance (letter from the Fed's or some real legal note explaining the origin of that non-OEM serial number could be had).

Without any legal form of compliance on the serial number, I'd not even be in the bidding.

Please let us know if you do hear back from the Seller, either way, as this not the first time I've seen this subject come up here on SWCA.

 

[glowe]

That revolver would pass any law enforcement or BATF inspection. There is nothing in the regulations that state what "font" a S&W is required to be stamped with. It has a butt serial number and assuming it matches all other numbers on the gun the owner is good to go.

 

[MelvinWalker]

I sold the genuine US Navy Victory pictured above exactly 1 year ago for $700 shipped. I had been asking more ($850 shipped) but there were no takers, not even any tire kickers. That's the beauty of this Forum....members and casual lookers will let you know if you are too high, and as soon as you hit a sweet spot..the "I'll take it" comes right away.

So....in my opinion if a genuine, Lettered example sold for $700 shipped and insured..then for sure the gun up for auction would be maybe $600 tops and then only IF some sort of provenance (letter from the Fed's or some real legal note explaining the origin of that non-OEM serial number could be had).

Without any legal form of compliance on the serial number, I'd not even be in the bidding.

Please let us know if you do hear back from the Seller, either way, as this not the first time I've seen this subject come up here on SWCA.

I will let everyone know if the auction house answers...However, they may just blow me off as a peanut gallery member when in fact, I am trying to possibly enlighten them to a potential problem.

The fact is the 99.9% of the population would think the serial number is fine because they have never even seen another Victory Model nor would they know what it is if they did see one. It immediately jumped out to me because the font looked shallow, misaligned and frankly hand stamped to be honest compared to every other Victory I have ever seen.

 

[MelvinWalker]

Reply

Here's the reply I got from the auction when they got my email:

"Thank you for contacting us regarding XXXXXXXXX"


We have updated the description for this lot to note that the butt frame serial is force matched to the rest of this revolver. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

We appreciate your interest in the auction and wish you the best of luck in bidding.


Please let us know if you have any further questions.


Kind Regards,...."

 

[clipper1]

I never heard the phrase 'force matched' before. Is this common terminology as regards gun jargon?

 

[MelvinWalker]

I never heard the phrase 'force matched' before. Is this common terminology as regards gun jargon?

It actually is a common term among military surplus rifles....For example, Finland captures a metric ton of Mosins from Russia, re-arsenal and improves them and then when they headspace the bolts, they renumber everything...Russia did it too, as did many of the Warsaw Pact countires.

This would be a first time I have heard of the US military doing it to a revolver frame, but maybe some SME's will give examples of it.

 

[cololab]

I claim no expertise regarding what the U.S. military has done regarding the restamping of obliterated weapon serial numbers. The only instance I recall offhand was the stamping of the serial number in front of the rear sight on M1 carbines when the original rear flip sight was replaced with an adjustable rear sight.

On occasion the adjustable sight obscured the original serial number on the carbine, so it was stamped as mentioned above so as to be legible. The originally applied serial number was not defaced or obliterated however.

Admittedly, this practice is not the same situation as related by OP and does nothing to confirm the legitimacy / legality of the number on the revolver posted by the OP. It's just an example of what the U.S. military has done in certain circumstances.