Don't use your gun to threaten

[Rastoff]

I must disagree. I can envision a number of scenarios where I would want my gun in my hand but not yet be able to shoot.

OK, I'll bite, what are those situations? Remember, this is about threatening someone with your gun and making demands that they're supposed to follow.

Ok, go.

 

[ContinentalOp]

I must disagree. I can envision a number of scenarios where I would want my gun in my hand but not yet be able to shoot.

Dictums like those pronounced here about never drawing without shooting need to be explained as pertaining to some very specific but common personal defense situations.

Preservation of life is goal #1. Any advantage I can give myself I am going to use. Prosecutors and courts are a secondary concern. If I'm dead, they won't matter.

I think there's a difference between drawing a gun when deadly force is justified but presenting the gun makes shooting no longer necessary, having a gun in hand as a precautionary measure if its need in the immediate future is anticipated, and using a gun as a means to threaten and compel compliance.

The first situation is certainly a possibility, and should be considered in one's training/practice regimen. The second situation is certainly useful in some scenarios, but may not be appropriate in all. The third situation, which I believe is the focus of this thread, is probably more likely to end in a negative result than anything positive.

Just my opinion.

 

[hdtwice]

I wonder how that ended assuming no shots were fired....who blinked first and lowered their weapon and what was being said / done at the time to make them re-think their choice? Hmmm?

 

[K Frame Keith]

OP has a good point. This is also why I don't open carry. It only gives the nut jobs out there a reason and information to make false reports against you.

 

[HOGSTR]

I recieved this bit of wisdom from one of my firearms instructors...a legitimate act of self defense should come as a surprise to both parties. That would've avoided the situation as described in the OP's video.

 

[BE Mike]

Pointing a weapon unnecessarily should always be avoided. Having said that, having a handgun in one's hand is the quickest draw. There are times when the "quickest draw" is necessary.

 

[Miami_JBT]

The average American Gun Owner buys and owns a gun as a magic talisman with the belief that it wards away the energy of bad people and endows the holders with super magical nearly fantastical cosmic powers. They buy the cheapest thing at a gun shop or big box store with a sporting goods department, shoot maybe twenty rounds through it if it is a handgun, and throw it in a sock drawer or glove compartment for the next twenty years. If it is a long gun, they shoot maybe five rounds and throw it in a closet.

Then you have the folks that actually get a CCW. Guess what, most don't regularly carry. To them, it is a "just in case" thing. Like a "Oh, I have it just in case things are bad Downtown and I have to go there for business. I'll carry that day". It too is a magic talisman and a sense of falsehood. I see it all time.

Your average gun owner has no understanding of tactics, training, the laws, safety, etc... Your average gun owner is pretty much a safety hazard both physically and legally speaking.

 

[SMSgt]

Nobody's right when everybody's wrong.

 

[AlHunt]

I give you Dr Al's 3 step plan to avoid shooting people:

1) Avoid
2) Evade
3) Escape

Avoid - whether it's a person, place or situation, just be somewhere else.

Evade - If you see trouble on the horizon, go somewhere else.

Escape - If you walk into it anyway or it finds you, look for an escape route.

If you follow my proven 3 step formula, you probably won't need a 4 step formula.

I don't know if the guy on the right had a compelling reason to be driving around/through a riot. But he failed at step 1.

 

[Protected One]

A lot of questions arise from this snapshot and the explanation given.

If the guy in the truck felt threatened, he should simply drive away. Nobody has overtly threatened him by blocking his path, or trying to drag him out of his truck (lock your doors, man), or throwing bricks through his windshield. He's in a big steel and glass cocoon that moves. So, move it and himself away from the threat. Your description says he pulled the pistol to make the crowd "leave him alone". Were they making threats, or just taunting him? Had the guy in the helmet already drawn his gun, giving the guy in the truck reason to believe he was in mortal danger?

But, he chose to become a threat himself, by opening his door, pulling and pointing a gun, whether he actually intended to shoot it or not. Showing of a weapon solely as intimidation is brandishing; pointing it at someone is assault, pulling the trigger adds 'with intent to kill'. Then comes the murder or manslaughter charge if he actually kills someone, or 'committing serious injury' if he doesn't.

Enter the guy with the helmet on (looks a little like John Lennon). Why he is at a protest and carrying a weapon leads me to think he might have been looking for trouble, as much as being prepared for it. At any rate, He meets what he perceived as a threat to his life with armed force, and might have been justified if he had shot the guy in the truck, depending on the "stand your ground" or "duty or ability to retreat" laws in Oregon. Or, he could have taken cover to protect himself and waited to see if the guy in the truck was serious or not. But he didn't.

Now, it's become a Mexican Standoff, because guy in truck didn't intend to shoot, and guy with helmet didn't immediately answer the threat.

The only thing either of them can legally do now, is put their guns away.

Last question is, who is shooting the video, and are they also armed; and how stupid are they to be that close to a potential gunfight where they could easily become collateral damage?

I'd like to see the unedited video, if you have a link.

Without seeing the entire unedited video I'd have to say you nailed it. The driver, if in fear of great bodily harm would have been justified all day long to use his vehicle to remove himself from that dangerous area, and when any protesters put the driver in fear for his life, the passive protesters are lawful targets of the drivers defensive actions as well.

What scares ME is that there are MANY people like this out there; perhaps legally carrying, but unknowledgable and untrained.

 

[Protected One]

I give you Dr Al's 3 step plan to avoid shooting people:

1) Avoid
2) Evade
3) Escape

Avoid - whether it's a person, place or situation, just be somewhere else.

Evade - If you see trouble on the horizon, go somewhere else.

Escape - If you walk into it anyway or it finds you, look for an escape route.

If you follow my proven 3 step formula, you probably won't need a 4 step formula.

I don't know if the guy on the right had a compelling reason to be driving around/through a riot. But he failed at step 1.

That's a great plan. Unfortunately, it's not always possible to avoid trouble. Troublemakers get a vote too, and there's not always an escape route.

 

[Goldstar225]

The average American Gun Owner buys and owns a gun as a magic talisman with the belief that it wards away the energy of bad people and endows the holders with super magical nearly fantastical cosmic powers. They buy the cheapest thing at a gun shop or big box store with a sporting goods department, shoot maybe twenty rounds through it if it is a handgun, and throw it in a sock drawer or glove compartment for the next twenty years. If it is a long gun, they shoot maybe five rounds and throw it in a closet.

Then you have the folks that actually get a CCW. Guess what, most don't regularly carry. To them, it is a "just in case" thing. Like a "Oh, I have it just in case things are bad Downtown and I have to go there for business. I'll carry that day". It too is a magic talisman and a sense of falsehood. I see it all time.

Your average gun owner has no understanding of tactics, training, the laws, safety, etc... Your average gun owner is pretty much a safety hazard both physically and legally speaking.

Sounds just like something out of the anti-gun groups play book.

No, I'm not accusing you of being anti gun, especially given your time on the forum.

 

[Miami_JBT]

Sounds just like something out of the anti-gun groups play book.

No, I'm not accusing you of being anti gun, especially given your time on the forum.

Oh, I'm not anti-gun by any means. I just fully understand the truth of the situation. I am split between the libertarian side of me where I fully believe everyone has the right to liberty. And then comes the reality part of me kicks in. Where I understand that with liberty and freedom comes personal responsibility.

Most people wants the fun stuff that comes with liberty and freedom, but they never want to assume the boring stuff that comes with personal responsibility. I see it all the time on just about every subject matter.

 

[max503]

Originally Posted by CB3 View Post
I must disagree. I can envision a number of scenarios where I would want my gun in my hand but not yet be able to shoot.

OK, I'll bite, what are those situations? Remember, this is about threatening someone with your gun and making demands that they're supposed to follow.

Ok, go.

I was at a very rural gas station at 2a.m. A car pulls up, the guy gets out (his GF stays in the running car). The guy starts demanding that I help him. I say no. He tries crowding me. I demand he leaves me the hell alone. I grip my snubbie while keeping it in my pocket, while turning that side of my body away from the freak.
He wasn't willing to find out what I had in the pocket. I got out of there safely.

 

[Onomea]

...The man in the truck is feeling threatened by the crowd and he presents his gun in an apparent attempt to get them to leave him alone. The guy in the helmet has responded with a gun of his own. Neither intends to shoot, but both are now in violation of law.

.... Situations like this can only end badly.

Yes. They're both numbskulls.

I, too, can imagine scenarios where as a last resort it makes sense to pull a gun and, if the threat abates, not shoot. But I can't imagine a scenario in which I felt so threatened that when I had my gun out and leveled, that I wouldn't shoot if the threat tried to pull a gun on me.

 

[fredj338]

That's a great plan. Unfortunately, it's not always possible to avoid trouble. Troublemakers get a vote too, and there's not always an escape route.

Agree, in todays world you may have to make your escape route. Flashers, horn, gas peddle. If they get run over they get run over. Never get out of the vehicle unless better cover or escape is immediately available.

 

[fredj338]

Sounds just like something out of the anti-gun groups play book.

No, I'm not accusing you of being anti gun, especially given your time on the forum.

Yet its true! The avg person buying a gun gets zero training with it. I see them at ccw quals & at local ranges. It takes 5sec to acess someones skill level handling a weapon. There are a lot of gun owners out there just waiting for an accident to happen. Some even make national news like the idiot couple in StLouis. I know 2A, but dang, get some training. Its a gun not a toaster.

 

[Smoke]

The average American Gun Owner buys and owns a gun as a magic talisman with the belief that it wards away the energy of bad people and endows the holders with super magical nearly fantastical cosmic powers. They buy the cheapest thing at a gun shop or big box store with a sporting goods department, shoot maybe twenty rounds through it if it is a handgun, and throw it in a sock drawer or glove compartment for the next twenty years. If it is a long gun, they shoot maybe five rounds and throw it in a closet.

Then you have the folks that actually get a CCW. Guess what, most don't regularly carry. To them, it is a "just in case" thing. Like a "Oh, I have it just in case things are bad Downtown and I have to go there for business. I'll carry that day". It too is a magic talisman and a sense of falsehood. I see it all time.

Your average gun owner has no understanding of tactics, training, the laws, safety, etc... Your average gun owner is pretty much a safety hazard both physically and legally speaking.

Sounds just like something out of the anti-gun groups play book.

No, I'm not accusing you of being anti gun, especially given your time on the forum.

I'd say Miami JBT's assessment is SPOT ON

 

[Ziggy2525]

...

Then you have the folks that actually get a CCW. Guess what, most don't regularly carry. To them, it is a "just in case" thing. Like a "Oh, I have it just in case things are bad Downtown and I have to go there for business. I'll carry that day".
...

Mostly agree, except with the above.

In my state a really high number of people with CHP's, IIRC something over 85%, don't carry. Absolutely nothing to do with a magic talisman.

Each city, town, and county in the state has their own ordinances for handgun ownership and possession. The laws can change as you drive from town to town.

For those with a CHP there's a single set of laws that apply statewide for purchase, non-registration, ownership, transportation, concealed carry, open carry, prohibited areas, and sale of handguns. Most people got their CHP because it made ownership easier, not because they intended to carry or they needed a talisman.

 

[Rastoff]

For those with a CHP there's a single set of laws that apply statewide for purchase, non-registration, ownership, transportation, concealed carry, open carry, prohibited areas, and sale of handguns. Most people got their CHP because it made ownership easier, not because they intended to carry or they needed a talisman.

I understand your point with this, but the comment about the "magic talisman" doesn't really apply to those who get a CCW for the purposes you state. The idea is that many people think, "Phew, I have a gun therefore, I'm safe." Nothing could be further from the truth.

One of my favorite quotes from Jeff Cooper, "Owning a gun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician."