Double action revolver shooting, anyone heard this?

[Pondoro]

I recently heard someone say not to align the sights and then squeeze double action. He said the squeeze was guaranteed to misalign the sights. He said learn to have the sights come into alignment as the trigger stages and then breaks. I'd never heard that and I haven't had a chance to try it. I did try it dry firing and it does seem possible, but I have no idea if it is accurate.

 

[riversalmon]

Information is accurate. The last stage of trigger pull is the alignment timing, just before the break. Takes a bit of practice but can be acquired by familiarity with the staging. N frames with their inertia driven cylinder weight lend themselves to this double action shooting.

 

[ken158]

The bullet goes where the sights are aligned when the gun fires!

 

[27 Man]

My old model 27 lends itself well to this type of shooting. Once you get the inertia of that big cylinder moving, it just kind of takes over. I used it in PPC shooting years ago.

 

[H Richard]

It's referred to as "staging the trigger" pull it until just before the break and then align the sights (focus on front sight) and finish the trigger pull. It takes practice, and is unfortunately a skill that goes away if not continued to be practiced. After many years of 1911's, going back to a revolver for any kind of competition is a re-learning proposition.

 

[bigggbbruce]

I've learned where to start my sight alignment and finish as the hammer breaks. As mentioned practiced timing.

 

[reddog81]

That could make sense. The key to good shooting is consistency. If you can start with the sights on "point A" and end up with the sights perfectly aligned every time it might work better than start with the sights aligned and trying to maintain the same sight picture through the whole trigger pull. The key would be to figure out where to align the sights for the start of the trigger pull and make sure they follow the exact same arc every time you pull the trigger.

Not an easy task for a beginner to try and learn but could be helpful for someone trying to master double action trigger pulls

 

[Jebus35745]

We shoot a double action only revolver league for 8 weeks every year at the club. The guns I shoot have narrow triggers and I bring the trigger back slowly till my finger touches the frame. Now I re-align the sights and pull the trigger a little more till it goes off. Lots of the 35-40 shooters use this process. Easy to learn and not much guess work. Larry

 

[Big Cholla]

As said, "Consistency in practice is the key to accuracy." It is also the key to muscle memory. I know there are several schools of thought on just what handgun accuracy is all about. I am in the school that handguns are 'the first weapon of self-defense' and being such I firmly believe that one should practice for that category of use and accuracy. It follows for me that staging of the trigger is a practice that can get one into serious trouble in an actual self-defense shooting incident. There are just too many input considerations in that instance for the fine motor skills required to successfully stage the trigger while pointing a handgun at a human being. That practice could very well result in the shooting of another just as that person decides to defuse the situation. I had one instance in my LEO career where I had a gun pointed and thought that I was going to have to shoot when the situation was suddenly and obviously defused. I think that if I had been staging my trigger I very well could have gone too far and shot someone when I didn't need too. Any unexpected totally non related input like sound, movement by someone else, command by another LEO or whatever could cause an inadvertent contraction of the trigger finger and that would be all it took. So..... IMHO, you have to make the decision.....are you a paper puncher or a self-defense person with your handgun. I don't believe from what I have observed on the range and in the field that one can be both. ............

 

[OKFC05]

Staging sounds good in theory, particularly if you aren't a very good or fast revolver shot, but Big Cholla is 100% that it can get you in deep doo doo in defensive shooting.
IMHO based on decades of competition revolver shooting, staging wastes too much time on near and medium shots, but might be useful on some really long shots. Staging is out of the question when trying to keep splits around .25 to .4 second on shots out to 15 yd or so, to be at all competitive. As Mr Miculek says, "Anything works if you have all the time in the world, but in competition, you don't."

 

[ISCS Yoda]

This is VERY interesting! The only revolvers I ever shot in competition were SAA replicas in cowboy action matches so the issue of staging is non-existent. At the range I routinely stage my S&W triggers when shooting at targets. I'm going to have to try it the other way since it's S&W revolvers that are generally my first line of defense.

THANKS!!!!

 

[Pondoro]

I'm not talking a slow staging with a pause. I was listening to a shooter who competes in speed events. One long (long is imposed by the gun, not the shooter) trigger pull but instead of aligning the sights perfectly and then attempting to maintain that perfect alignment you accept misalignment at the start of the pull but then practice the alignment coming into perfect centering and vertical alignment as the trigger goes through the stage point to release.

I would never advocate pulling the trigger to "stage" and then holding a sight picture on a human.

I have practiced this for about a week and a half, dry firing, and I can see the sights in good alignment as the trigger breaks.

I haven't tried it with ammo at the range yet. I haven't ever held for a noticeable pause at the stage point. We will see if it improves my plate shooting. I don't have any emotional skin in this game, it either helps me or it doesn't.

 

[shawn mccarver]

We need to define terminology here. "Staging" is pulling the trigger just to the point of the break, then stopping to create a sort of single action effect when firing double action. The actions of Colts and Rugers are more conducive to this unfortunate practice. The S&W action is simply not conducive to this sort of shooting.

The preferable way with the S&W action (really, the others as well) is is to pull smoothly completely through the double action stroke without slowing, stopping, hesitating or otherwise "staging" the shot in any manner.

The method taught by most of the "big names" in defense shooting is the method taught by Jeff Cooper (yes, he taught revolvers as well). That method is that the double action stroke begins as the weapon is brought up to align the sights, and the stroke finishes as the sights are aligned, and the shot is made when the weapon reaches the top of the presentation stroke which is when the sights are aligned. So, three things occur at once: (1) the weapon reaches the point in its presentation where the (2) sights are aligned, and (3) the hammer falls. This takes much practice, and it is very frustrating because timing is everything. It is suggested that it be perfected in slow motion. Speed comes eventually. This is best practiced with dry fire, and it has the advantage of simultaneously smoothing the action and allowing the shooter to learn the trigger!

I forgot to mention that the current S&W revolver manual has a stern warning against the practice of staging because of the danger of pulling just a bit too far and discharging the weapon when you intended to stop the stroke just before discharge.

EDIT: It sounds like what has been described to you in Post 12 is the non-staging method where the process of aligning the sights occurs simultaneously as the weapon is brought up and the trigger stroke is in process, so that all three things happen at once with one long, continuous stroke of the trigger in double action mode without any staging.

 

[TAROMAN]

Exactly what I learned and have always practiced.
A good S&W has such a fine trigger that it would take someone much more sensitive than me to bring the trigger to the cusp of break.

We need to define terminology here. "Staging" is pulling the trigger just to the point of the break, then stopping to create a sort of single action effect when firing double action. The actions of Colts and Rugers are more conducive to this unfortunate practice. The S&W action is simply not conducive to this sort of shooting.

The preferable way with the S&W action (really, the others as well) is is to pull smoothly completely through the double action stroke without slowing, stopping, hesitating or otherwise "staging" the shot in any manner.

The method taught by most of the "big names" in defense shooting is the method taught by Jeff Cooper (yes, he taught revolvers as well). That method is that the double action stroke begins as the weapon is brought up to align the sights, and the stroke finishes as the sights are aligned, and the shot is made when the weapon reaches the top of the presentation stroke which is when the sights are aligned. So, three things occur at once: (1) the weapon reaches the point in its presentation where the (2) sights are aligned, and (3) the hammer falls. This takes much practice, and it is very frustrating because timing is everything. It is suggested that it be perfected in slow motion. Speed comes eventually. This is best practiced with dry fire, and it has the advantage of simultaneously smoothing the action and allowing the shooter to learn the trigger!

I forgot to mention that the current S&W revolver manual has a stern warning against the practice of staging because of the danger of pulling just a bit too far and discharging the weapon when you intended to stop the stroke just before discharge.

EDIT: It sounds like what has been described to you in Post 12 is the non-staging method where the process of aligning the sights occurs simultaneously as the weapon is brought up and the trigger stroke is in process, so that all three things happen at once with one long, continuous stroke of the trigger in double action mode without any staging.

 

[Pondoro]

I recommend everyone dry fire every other day for a couple of weeks. It really teaches you about triggers.

A K frame (in my opinion) has a much nicer trigger than a Ruger GP (though I really like both guns). The N Frame is the enigma. It was built for the 44 and in 357 there is a lot of leftover metal in that huge cylinder. In fast firing it acts like a flywheel and resists turning, early in the trigger pull. Once the cylinder speeds up and then reaches it's stop point and locks up the trigger pull changes noticeably as it pulls through and releases the hammer. You do not need to stop there but I can understand the temptation. I have read that this inertia is why lawmen demanded a K frame 357 but I never really understood it until I practiced fast dry firing an N frame alongside other revolvers.

 

[shawn mccarver]

You give lawmen way too much credit for shooting knowledge and trigger finesse.

The real reason for the K frame Magnum (Combat Magnum) was size, weight, and the ability to carry more comfortably for longer periods of time.

 

[Fish827]

DA Shooting

Information is accurate. The last stage of trigger pull is the alignment timing, just before the break. Takes a bit of practice but can be acquired by familiarity with the staging. N frames with their inertia driven cylinder weight lend themselves to this double action shooting.

I have a 625 Mountain 45 colt that has been worked on...I practice..click.click..Bang..and she does her part...

 

[Pondoro]

You give lawmen way too much credit for shooting knowledge and trigger finesse.

The real reason for the K frame Magnum (Combat Magnum) was size, weight, and the ability to carry more comfortably for longer periods of time.

I actually read an article by Skeeter where he claimed that Bill Jordan told the president of Smith that the cylinder of the N frame "took too long to start spinning." That's a great layman' description of rotational inertia.

 

[getoff]

I'm a trigger "slapper" like the great JM, not that I'm any good at all, or deserve to mention him in the same sentence. That said, I pull straigt through the "stage" on double action. Most of my S&W's are smooth, too smooth to find that "stage" reliably. I never cock a hammer with a thumb, and would never think of doing it in self defense. The theory sounds good in a bowling pin match, or 25 yd bullseye.

 

[fredj338]

You can prestage the trigger as noted or just pull straight thru, both work. Prestaging is better for longer distance, in close, under 10yds, pulling straight thru is perfectly adequate for zero down on a std IDPA target.