Down the rabbit hole with ford Fe part numbers

[Ghost Magnum]

I started going through the part numbers on my 427. I always known ford FE parts numbers list was a mess. But this is insane. My crankshaft says 3U. Digging through fords parts numbers list and found this crankshaft is a 390 stroke truck crank made after 1973.
The rods are forged from the late 60s. Possibly cobra jet rods. The timing chain cover is 1967 cast iron truck.

The biggest offender is my 427 block itself. I noticed there is ribs on one side of the block and no part number. After some digging on the internet. I found this could be a over the counter engine block. I found a P cast into the rear of the block. I found a picture of a vintage parts catalog saying that the P means extra phosphorus in the mix. And this is a performance block that was made after 1970. It should also be stronger then production block.

This is supposed to be a Chris Craft engine out of a pare. The guy I bought this from showed me some of the parts that came off of it.

One possibility is some time in the boats life. One of the 427s failed or froze. The owner bought a new block and crankshaft and transfered all the parts from old block to the new one. But I'm having a hard time believing someone would spend a ton of money buying a expensive engine block, and building it for a boat. It would be cheaper to just buy a used engine.

Another possibility is at the time that since some of the parts dated in the early 70s. Ford was in the process of fazing out the big block FE family for the 429/460. Ford has just dropped out of racing and dealing with new regulations. They probably had some orders to fill for Chris Craft. So ford probably just literally used whatever parts that was within arm's reach and sent it to Chris Craft.

Or, it's all meaningless. The numbers mean nothing. This is just what ford did what ever year this chris craft motor was assembled. And I'm way over thinking it.

This is most definitely a 427 cast as a side oiler. It has the bosses, side bolt mains and screw in freeze plugs. A 427 FE is a 427 FE. So I'm still happy I have it.

 

[NYlakesider]

I started going through the part numbers on my 427. I always known ford FE parts numbers list was a mess. But this is insane. My crankshaft says 3U. Digging through fords parts numbers list and found this crankshaft is a 390 stroke truck crank made after 1973.
The rods are forged from the late 60s. Possibly cobra jet rods. The timing chain cover is 1967 cast iron truck.

The biggest offender is my 427 block itself. I noticed there is ribs on one side of the block and no part number. After some digging on the internet. I found this could be a over the counter engine block. I found a P cast into the rear of the block. I found a picture of a vintage parts catalog saying that the P means extra phosphorus in the mix. And this is a performance block that was made after 1970. It should also be stronger then production block.

This is supposed to be a Chris Craft engine out of a pare. The guy I bought this from showed me some of the parts that came off of it.

One possibility is some time in the boats life. One of the 427s failed or froze. The owner bought a new block and crankshaft and transfered all the parts from old block to the new one. But I'm having a hard time believing someone would spend a ton of money buying a expensive engine block, and building it for a boat. It would be cheaper to just buy a used engine.

Another possibility is at the time that since some of the parts dated in the early 70s. Ford was in the process of fazing out the big block FE family for the 429/460. Ford has just dropped out of racing and dealing with new regulations. They probably had some orders to fill for Chris Craft. So ford probably just literally used whatever parts that was within arm's reach and sent it to Chris Craft.

Or, it's all meaningless. The numbers mean nothing. This is just what ford did what ever year this chris craft motor was assembled. And I'm way over thinking it.

This is most definitely a 427 cast as a side oiler. It has the bosses, side bolt mains and screw in freeze plugs. A 427 FE is a 427 FE. So I'm still happy I have it.

I know a lot of boat people. Many of then will buy all new. Up here we have all winter to do work and get ready for late spring.

Do not know much about Ford boat engines but years back when all the auto parts counters had those huge racks of parts books getting Ford stuff could be very interesting.

Ford used to supersede and change specifications so often during a model run you need a Vin or at least the month something was built to get the right part. Go for a part for another car company, get your part in 5 minutes , go for the same Ford part 20 minutes if your lucky.

 

[flagman1776]

I don't know about Ford based Marine engines specifically but at the time it was common to have combinations that were never used in on road vehicles. Ford blocks with Presolite ignition. Things like that. They were purpose built for a different purposes, different loads and to comply with different rules.

 

[PatriotX]

I don't know about Ford based Marine engines specifically but at the time it was common to have combinations that were never used in on road vehicles. Ford blocks with Presolite ignition. Things like that. They were purpose built for a different purposes, different loads and to comply with different rules.

This has been my [limited] experience, as well.

The 390 crank shouldn’t be a big deal, probably can’t measure the stroke difference at piston face.

 

[Ghost Magnum]

Marine 427 had their own part numbers. That why this engine isn't making since.

 

[PatriotX]

Marine 427 had their own part numbers. That why this engine isn't making since.

Maybe someone borrowed the boat and had to fix after an ‘incident?’

 

[anoblefox]

been working on the small block Ford all of my adult life. The strangest thing regarding replacement parts happened when I replaced the tired 302 in my 73 Bronco. I obtained an 351 Windsor long block from a local Ford dealer. I was lucky enough to find a 69 4 barrel factory cast intake manifold at a wrecking yard for $35, not many were made. I went to purchase a aftermarket distributor from a speed shop, since the oil pump drive was longer and larger than the 302. When I tried to install it it became impossible to drop in place, not that I did not give it my best. Totally frustrated, I finally compared the old dist to the new one and found out why it would not fit. The gears had opposite patterns on the teeth. Come to find out I was told that the new one I purchased had a gear for a engine with a reverse rotation "marine engine" that would have had twin engines, one turning the opposite of the other. Strange but true I guess. I love Fords, but they do some crazy stuff with their parts compared to GM.

 

[wheelgun28]

I am not a Ford guy but I am a Chevy guy. I used to work on boats and cars and building hot rods of both.

I did have a pair of 1968 Chevy 427 Mercruiser engines. They were built with lots of goodies, four-bolt block (same casting as the corvette) also a forged steel crankshaft, lighter duty rods not the good ones. The heads were actually for industrial engines, with open chambers and stellite exhaust valve seats, the were "big"ovals, not peanut port. Had a cast iron high rise intake with a Quadrajet. I think it was rated at 325hp.

They had other nice things too, a big cast-aluminum oil pan and electronic ignition and gear diven cams.

Remember boat engines work hard, its like driving up hill all the time.

I am not surprised that the Ford has heavy duty parts in it too.

 

[wheelgun28]

been working on the small block Ford all of my adult life. The strangest thing regarding replacement parts happened when I replaced the tired 302 in my 73 Bronco. I obtained an 351 Windsor long block from a local Ford dealer. I was lucky enough to find a 69 4 barrel factory cast intake manifold at a wrecking yard for $35, not many were made. I went to purchase a aftermarket distributor from a speed shop, since the oil pump drive was longer and larger than the 302. When I tried to install it it became impossible to drop in place, not that I did not give it my best. Totally frustrated, I finally compared the old dist to the new one and found out why it would not fit. The gears had opposite patterns on the teeth. Come to find out I was told that the new one I purchased had a gear for a engine with a reverse rotation "marine engine" that would have had twin engines, one turning the opposite of the other. Strange but true I guess. I love Fords, but they do some crazy stuff with their parts compared to GM.

This is very common to have a "reverse rotation" engine. Usually its done with a camshaft and drive change. The distributor gears are different and I am pretty sure the distributor turns the normal rotation as does the oil pump.

In the "olden" days they would put one engine in facing forward, the the other would be backwards, driving off the original front of the engine.

Today, newer transmissions can do the direction change and all new engines are standard rotation.

The reason for it is that when the propellers spin opposite directions it counteracts the torque created. One propeller all ways will pull the direction of rotation, its manageable. However, with two engines the pull would be too great. With counter-rotation the pull is balanced.

This is true for propeller aircraft also.

 

[BillBond]

Seems like you would find more specific answers about an engine series (FE) that ceased to be manufactured in 1975,
on a website that discusses obsolete Fords.

 

[DeathGrip]

Seems like you would find more specific answers about an engine series (FE) that ceased to be manufactured in 1975,
on a website that discusses obsolete Fords.

There's lots of info on the FE's on the HAMB. It's a good resource but I'm not too sure about the marine block questions.

But a lot of us don't hangout there like we do here and here we have the smartest group of scholars on the www.

 

[Ghost Magnum]

This engine is confusing. I'm still going to build it. If this was a over the counter engine block that was built to replace a worn engine. That would explain why it's in good shape.

 

[Sandman4delta]

(I commented on your other post too)

There are lots of resources at the Ford forums and very possibly an FE specific one.
There's a parts company called Perogie that bought up most of the speed and racing stuff from Ford when they got out of racing in the mid 70's. I have talked to them several times and they have super knowledgeable counter guys (Jinks Level ) that will take time with you.

I missed what year the boat supposedly got the engine, but you are right that they would possibly use anything on hand. The part number would always be older than the block part number if so.
Any later number is of course a replacement part...
Unless the BLOCK had sat on the shelf for a while and the parts they built it with were SLIGHTLY newer. (Cornfuzed yet?)
Ford did not usually change a part number while in production so a 63 piston could have been made years later until superseded or discontinued. A cast date only tells you the earliest it could have been made.

New subject: Ford did build specific truck engines and parts. One example is the 390 for cars and light trucks vs a 391 for heavier trucks.
A block with a ribbed pattern on one side (sorry don't have picture) can be because this is a truck block meant for things like tow trucks. The 428 I had built for my 77 F150 had one of these heavy service blocks. (The original was a 360 so I had the shop find me a block).

Another industry liberty is that boat stuff doesn't have the same rules and regs as car and truck engineering approved for our nations highways and EPA. With boats it's whatever works, last and makes power. Not necessarily in that order.

As I said in the other post, do the homework and math on all of your parts. Unfortunately, much as I love them, Ford isn't as simple as small block, big block etc. I once had a timing cover almost chewed up by a fuel pump cam because of and in series change from one year to the next. Only hand turning to test saved the day. I have one of the old 80's books on rebuilding small blocks which showed an example of a bolt together combination of one year 302 block and another year of heads with all stock parts and no machine shop work that makes it 14:1 compression. (Would probly 'splode quickly I think)

My FE thought are with you, hope it comes out excellent.

(My last project)

 

[Racer X]

A friend of mine had a '64 Owens cruiser. It had a Chevy 327. The block and heads were 327 Corvette parts, but that is what Owens ordered from GM, or what GM sent based on the Owens design specs for power output.

Also, for example, plenty of Chrysler Hemi cars in '71 had '69 or '70 parts. Chrysler had to use them up. In addition (same guy with the Owens) has a '72 340 4 speed Dodge Challenger. He is the second owner, purchased from his boss, the original owner. Anyway, the block casting says it is a '71 340 Six Pack block, but it has the ser# stamped for his car. Left over parts again.

 

[Ghost Magnum]

(I commented on your other post too)

There are lots of resources at the Ford forums and very possibly an FE specific one.
There's a parts company called Perogie that bought up most of the speed and racing stuff from Ford when they got out of racing in the mid 70's. I have talked to them several times and they have super knowledgeable counter guys (Jinks Level ) that will take time with you.

I missed what year the boat supposedly got the engine, but you are right that they would possibly use anything on hand. The part number would always be older than the block part number if so.
Any later number is of course a replacement part...
Unless the BLOCK had sat on the shelf for a while and the parts they built it with were SLIGHTLY newer. (Cornfuzed yet?)
Ford did not usually change a part number while in production so a 63 piston could have been made years later until superseded or discontinued. A cast date only tells you the earliest it could have been made.

New subject: Ford did build specific truck engines and parts. One example is the 390 for cars and light trucks vs a 391 for heavier trucks.
A block with a ribbed pattern on one side (sorry don't have picture) can be because this is a truck block meant for things like tow trucks. The 428 I had built for my 77 F150 had one of these heavy service blocks. (The original was a 360 so I had the shop find me a block).

Another industry liberty is that boat stuff doesn't have the same rules and regs as car and truck engineering approved for our nations highways and EPA. With boats it's whatever works, last and makes power. Not necessarily in that order.

As I said in the other post, do the homework and math on all of your parts. Unfortunately, much as I love them, Ford isn't as simple as small block, big block etc. I once had a timing cover almost chewed up by a fuel pump cam because of and in series change from one year to the next. Only hand turning to test saved the day. I have one of the old 80's books on rebuilding small blocks which showed an example of a bolt together combination of one year 302 block and another year of heads with all stock parts and no machine shop work that makes it 14:1 compression. (Would probly 'splode quickly I think)

My FE thought are with you, hope it comes out excellent.

(My last project)

This is definitely a 427 block. My only guess is it was built out of whatever was on hand just to fill a order and nothing else. If I was willing to risk it. I could convert it to a SO

 

[Ghost Magnum]

But I don't want to spend the money and risking losing my block. Ford parts numbers is one hell of a rabbit hole to dive into.
The guy I bought this from said the other 427 was in rougher shape. This was the better engine of the two. I guess this being a new engine would explain how it has less wear.
I guess I will never know.
But I'm leaning towards the idea that ford was just trying to fill orders and used off the shelf parts to do.

 

[Ghost Magnum]

A friend of mine had a '64 Owens cruiser. It had a Chevy 327. The block and heads were 327 Corvette parts, but that is what Owens ordered from GM, or what GM sent based on the Owens design specs for power output.

Also, for example, plenty of Chrysler Hemi cars in '71 had '69 or '70 parts. Chrysler had to use them up. In addition (same guy with the Owens) has a '72 340 4 speed Dodge Challenger. He is the second owner, purchased from his boss, the original owner. Anyway, the block casting says it is a '71 340 Six Pack block, but it has the ser# stamped for his car. Left over parts again.

That's probably what's going on here. Bad year with regs, gas prices and just dropped out of racing. Still have orders to fill. Leftover parts, grab a 427 service block off the shelf. Put it together and send it off to Chris Craft.

I once read someone found a ford 4 bolt main cleveland in a low trim level station wagon. I guess that was common back then.

 

[PatriotX]

(My last project)

70 gt? It’s beautiful.

 

[Ghost Magnum]

Yeah,. That 71 is sharp looking.

 

[Sandman4delta]

Numbers correct 1970 Torino GT 351 Cleveland 4V 300hp .
Loved it but can't afford to feed it the octane it needed with stock engine compression. Cruise fine but knock on hill climb or hard accel even on best pump premium. Would have been a shame to detune it just for a cool looking car. Sold it to a German guy who said their gas is expensive but they get 100 octane at the pump so she'll run healthy and happy.