Down & To the left, INPUT please!

[Camocustom]

I will get some pics soon. BUT I will tell you how it ends up. I have a S&W 645 auto. At the range from 7 yds, My "hit" groupings are always down and to the left of the Bulls. Does somebody have a technical explaination why, without seeing how I am standing. Does it have something to do with my height or arm length? Im sure its something I am going to have to adjust....any suggestions would be great!!

 

[Camocustom]

I will get some pics soon. BUT I will tell you how it ends up. I have a S&W 645 auto. At the range from 7 yds, My "hit" groupings are always down and to the left of the Bulls. Does somebody have a technical explaination why, without seeing how I am standing. Does it have something to do with my height or arm length? Im sure its something I am going to have to adjust....any suggestions would be great!!

 

[OKFC05]

This is often caused by shooter flinch.

Suggest you get an excellent shooter to shoot it and be sure the gun is OK.

If it is, you might ask him for some coaching.

 

[Camocustom]

The gun is brand new when I got it 4 weeks ago. and my wife seems to get ok groupings. Only 200 rds. have been through it.

 

[OKFC05]

While you can't learn to shoot a pistol off the internet, here's some info:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Yohikhl9_c

 

[Pisgah]

Almost guaranteed, it is your trigger technique plus a small flinch in anticipation of recoil.

Dryfiring is your diagnostic friend and cure. With an empty gun, pick a clear target, take careful aim, and pull the trigger just as if you were firing a shot. Keep your eye firmly welded on the front sight. Likely you will see it move off during the trigger pull/hammer fall. Now, check your trigger finger. Are you pulling the trigger with the tip, the pad, or the first joint? Whichever it is, try moving things around a bit. With most guns I get best results with the trigger firmly centered in the pad of the finger, but for you it may be one of the other two options.

Once you see your sight staying centered, continue to dryfire practice, always concentrating on the front sight and keeping it steady. The next time you go to live fire, you will see a difference.

 

[pberry]

When I press my left mouse butten the pointer moves down and to the left just like my shot with my S&W40c. I have been working to stop doing that and have just about stopped with the M&P. It take work to stop doing that. It is natural. You have work at it. I had a Colt Gold Cup that I shot IPSC with in the early 80's. 2.5 pound trigger broke like glass. No flinch, no down and left with it. The M&P has a 4 pound trigger with some creep. After not shooting for almost 20 years, its been difficult to stop pulling down and left. I have been through about 2000 rounds with the M&P now and I am seeing results. I hope you can do it sooner than I did.
Phil

 

[Catshooter]

What happens is as you tighten your trigger finger to fire the piece, you are also tightening your other three fingers. This pulls the pistol down and to the left, if you are shooting with your right hand. Up and right for lefties.

Hope this helps.


Cat

 

[greener]

Low left is a sign of jerking or tightening fingers.

Error Analysis

 

[socal s&w]

Catshooter is right on the mark, no pun there, you are tightening, or squeezing your entire hand and not just moving the trigger finger.

 

[David Hineline]

First off shoot the gun and adjust the sights with the pistol held steady on sandbags from the bench. Once the gun shoots to point of aim then any change is the shooter.

Buy something called Snap Caps or Action Proving Dummies, they look like ammunition but are fakes. Have your partner load one or more in the magazine some place down the stack where you do not know or expect it. Concentrate on your sights and shoot the target, when the gun goes click/no bang because of the dummy you will see what you are doing to the point of aim as you pull the trigger. Now that you know what you are doing, stop it. Point an unloaded gun at the wall on a dot. Keep pulling the triger over and over untill you can click it without the sights loosing aim on the dot.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Originally posted by Pisgah:
Almost guaranteed, it is your trigger technique plus a small flinch in anticipation of recoil.

Dryfiring is your diagnostic friend and cure. With an empty gun, pick a clear target, take careful aim, and pull the trigger just as if you were firing a shot. Keep your eye firmly welded on the front sight. Likely you will see it move off during the trigger pull/hammer fall. Now, check your trigger finger. Are you pulling the trigger with the tip, the pad, or the first joint? Whichever it is, try moving things around a bit. With most guns I get best results with the trigger firmly centered in the pad of the finger, but for you it may be one of the other two options.

Once you see your sight staying centered, continue to dryfire practice, always concentrating on the front sight and keeping it steady. The next time you go to live fire, you will see a difference.

One secret to dryfiring is to be surprised. This is easy with a revolver because you can have a friend load the cylinder with some spent cartridges mixed in. It is harder to do with an auto because you have to get something inert that will feed in a dummy while you are firing a mag full of what you think are "hot" rounds. Fire a couple of hot rounds and all of sudden the dummy is in and when you pull the trigger you will get a violent convulsive movement of the hand and gun in anticipation of recoil - like you are bracing against it. Remember, the recoil of a .45 is not nearly as bad as what most guys want their girlfriends to think!

 

[magnum12pm]

David's got the answer on this one. You always shoot off a pistol rest or sandbags make sight adjustments if needed. Then the problem is narrowed down to, you guessed it, the shooter. The worst thing you can do is try and adjust a sight by hand holding the weapon. It just does not make any sense. I hope I am not being to snippy, but people seem to want to hand hold the gun, then assume they are so good it must be the weapon.

 

[oldRoger]

+1 for all of the above, IMO all good methods.
You know your sights are on, your wife groups well, but to convince yourself, do the sight in recommended above from a rest.
Now you will know that it’s your hands not the sights.
Obviously when dry firing made damm certain that the pistol is not loaded.
I have found it helpful when dry firing to get the muzzle very close to the target, put a dot on the wall, at muzzle height, hold the gun 1” from the dot concentrate on the front sight and your trigger pull and watch the front sight move off target.
Sometimes people get a “death grip” on the pistol then grip even harder as they squeeze the trigger.
It should not be a white knuckle thing.
A “Field First Sergeant” told me many years ago; ”Imagine that you have a dove in your hand, don’t let it get away, but don’t crush the sh*t out of it”.

 

[Bullitholz]

A good, proper hold and proper trigger squeeze technique are essential. Another thing that is often overlooked by many is the impact of caffein and nicotine, these make people jumpy and exacerbate the situation. Another tip I'll throw out is to not shoot to many rounds in a session, 50 is probably plenty. If you want to shoot more bring a .22 along and practice your technique with that as well. Once you start flinching your through, put the guns down and take a break of go to a smaller caliber and try to work out your "kinks" with it.

 

[Lenshappy]

 

[cxm]

That is the classic trigger jerk result.

If you can find a diagnostic target it will tell you exactly what causes where you are shooting assuming your sights are right (which they almost always are.)

FWIW

Chuck

Originally posted by Camocustom:
I will get some pics soon. BUT I will tell you how it ends up. I have a S&W 645 auto. At the range from 7 yds, My "hit" groupings are always down and to the left of the Bulls. Does somebody have a technical explaination why, without seeing how I am standing. Does it have something to do with my height or arm length? Im sure its something I am going to have to adjust....any suggestions would be great!!

 

[Camocustom]

Sorry everybody, I have been sick and not on the forum. BUT
THANK YOU ALL, for the responses. I am headed to the range after work today, gonna go through 50rds and try to do some adjustments to myself as explained by all you wonderful people! just an FYI, the sights on my S&W are fixed, so I know its me. thanks photo, for that correction chart picture. that helps a TON! As does all of this info, I printed all the responses!!!

Thanks again, Daniel

 

[Camocustom]

Ok, range report from yesterday, after attempting adjustments, I am for sure squeezing my other 3 fingers. BTW, this was 50 rounds.

 

[Bullitholz]

Yep, looks a lot like my groups. Bear in mind that a lot of factory ammo will shoot 4-5 inch groups out of many guns. Couple that with a flinching habit and your targets will look just like the one you posted.

In the future shoot the same combo but try it on a fresh target, left handed and see what happens. I bet you'll be surprised.

If you haven't seen it go over to you tube and run a search for Todd Jarret, watch the video "Todd Jarret on pistol shooting", pay particular attention to the section where he talks about gripping the gun, helped me a LOT.
Even though I still have many targets that look like yours does, it doesn't bother me anymore because, I figure, if the majority of the rounds hit in the center I'm doing pretty good.