Early 1900 Bench reloading Press

[BMur]

I got this today on a hunch. The seller thought it was a reloading tool but I wasn't convinced from the photos.
Sure enough it's a very cool very early bench reloading press that I've never seen. It came with 3 dies. Two are for the 38 special and one is a large caliber rifle die like a 50/70. It's definitely not a custom made tool. It's an industrial tool since it also came with primer inserts and a small part numbered loading plunger that would only make sense to a manufacturers part list.

Has anyone seen one like this?

I figure it dates to between 1900-1910 since the nuts and bolts are not SAE. Standard size took place after 1905.

Murph

 

[BMur]

Spent primer discharge

Notice the machined spent primer dump hole in the side of the lower housing? It's a very neat design. As you raise the lever the rammer brings the case up to the spring loaded primer punch die that pushes out the spent primer down the center of the rammer and through a machined galley then out the hole in the housing. Like a ball gum machine.

Murph

 

[jake1945]

How cool is that!

 

[BMur]

Identifying

I figure it was probably used at a police range since the primary caliber is 38 Special. That M&P caliber was extremely popular for many years after 1900. I don't know that I will ever identify the maker though.

Murph

 

[Dashriprock]

Excellent score -- very neat piece!

 

[Green Frog]

I would take these questions and pictures over to the Antique Reloading Tool Collectors Association website (ARTCA.com) and post them under "Unknown Reloading Tools". Those guys will jump on it like a duck on a June bug, and if anybody can identify it, they probably hang out there.

Froggie

 

[TIMETRIPPER]

That's a neat tool. I like anything old when it comes to firearms.have a box full of Ideal reloading hand tools with the bullet mold on the end. I've even used them on occasion especially for making bullets.
I hope you find out more about your press and please keep us posted.

John

 

[BMur]

I finally received a response from the Antique reloading tools website pasted below:


Sorry to take so long to reply but we have been on the road. What a neat press, SORRY to say I don't have any idea who made it, BUT it is REALLY INTERESTING!

Thanks for sharing it with us.,

Stay safe and well,

Tom Q


So, I'm still searching through old catalogs. No luck yet.

Murph

 

[flintsghost]

The method of having primers go out through a hole in the ram is similar to what RCBS used in their A and A2 presses. It does tend to get clogged up and needs to be cleaned out manually based on how my A2 does.

 

[glenwolde]

According to Google image search, that's a landing strut to a Piper Cherokee.

 

[Green Frog]

Murph, if Tom Quigley can't identify it, and if Ken N ("pressman") doesn't either I can't suggest anywhere else to turn. It will only be by some random discovery that you find out what it is, as TQ is recognized as the ranking authority on early reloading tools, and Ken is the honcho in the aAntique Reloading Tool Collectors Association. If neither Tom nor Ken recognize it, it may be an alien artifact!
Froggie

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

I figure it was probably used at a police range since the primary caliber is 38 Special. That M&P caliber was extremely popular for many years after 1900. I don't know that I will ever identify the maker though.

Murph

You know 38 Special became a Police standard after WWII (1945)? Before that I read where lawmen carry whatever they wanted to buy. I read one lawman's biography from the Depression Era and his big task was dispatching 'wild dogs' with a .22 caliber revolver.

 

[BMur]

38 Special

I've researched larger Police Departments like San Francisco, New York, Hartford, Chicago, Cleveland, Baltimore, etc. The common denominator by far was the 38 cal Pistol.

Early on it was the top break but around the turn of the century the 32 & 38 hand ejector were very popular. New York and Hartford had 32 Colt Hand ejectors first but quickly changed to the 38 Special.
I would imagine smaller cities and counties would have had officers purchase their own side arm.


Catalog research is like needle in a haystack with reloading tools.
You almost need to know the manufacturer or a patent number or your chances of finding the maker is very low. This bench loader is totally unmarked except for the loading plunger being part numbered.

There is a huge historical gap with bench type reloading tools that spans from the 1870's- into the late 1920's with the first patented C press. I think that patent is what brought hand loading to a new level. Before the late 1920's there wasn't a huge market for bench loading except for hand loading tools and kits.

From the late 1920's until present day it's pretty easy to research and follow.

Murph

 

[BMur]

Accessories

Here are a few photos of the accessories that came with the press.
You can see the hand held case mouth expander with a polished rock for a knob! It's heavy and very neat.
Nowadays that knob would be plastic.
This knob is heavy, cold, and attractive.
Also the loading plunger is part numbered.
Which to me proves it was mass produced.
Spring loaded primer that inserts into the rammer.
It also has a manual de primer.

It's an amazing survivor.

Murph

 

[toad67]

Are there any patent numbers on any of the items?

 

[BMur]

Markings

No patent stamps. No maker marks. Only the part number I posted.
Early reloading tools were often not marked. I also have a bench screw press for the 38/32 cal pistol. It's also unmarked except for caliber stamps on the brass dies. It dates to the late 1870's.

The numbered plunger is for the round nose 38 cal. Obviously other caliber plungers were available for this press. As I mentioned in a previous post it came with 3 dies. 2 are 38 cal(special) and One is I believe large rifle. That also supports this press being mass produced and for various calibers.

Murph

 

[AJ]

Interesting piece. Wish you luck in finding out who made it.

 

[BMur]

Narrowing the search

I decided to put my thinking cap on and make copies of the sale of this early antique press. I also made copies of our correspondence.

The seller claimed he found it in a box in an Attic of an estate sale. I also noticed the seller is from Pittsburg, Pennsylvania.

Makes perfect sense that the maker of this Press is close to that location. Which helps a ton!


Murph

 

[AJ]

I decided to put my thinking cap on and make copies of the sale of this early antique press. I also made copies of our correspondence.

The seller claimed he found it in a box in an Attic of an estate sale. I also noticed the seller is from Pittsburg, Pennsylvania.

Makes perfect sense that the maker of this Press is close to that location. Which helps a ton!


Murph

There are couple of Board Members here from the Pittsburgh area. Maybe one will see this and have an answer.

 

[BMur]

Close ups

I just finished completely Dissecting the press and documenting for quick reference. I also received an email from the seller who confirmed it was found in an attic of an estate sale in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Where he, in fact lives.

Notice from the photos, none of the bolts are even close to SAE STANDARDS. Even the three dies are odd. They are not 1" they are slightly over 1" and cut slightly under 1". I have a 1" die and it is too big for these odd threads. The dies also fit snug into the press. It's not in the least bit sloppy. It's machine fit from my experience.

So this is some solid proof it pre-dates the 1910 time frame when SAE WAS STANDARD for nuts and bolts. Even socket sets were introduced in 1907. The Model A was standard using carriage bolts in 1908. So the industry in a large industrial city like Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania would have followed the industry's standards pretty quickly.

Even if this press was manufactured by a talented machinist? Makes absolutely no sense for that machinist to make their own bolts and threading dies.

So I believe it was made before 1910 maybe several years earlier.

Murph

 

[mrchick]

I just finished completely Dissecting the press and documenting for quick reference. I also received an email from the seller who confirmed it was found in an attic of an estate sale in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Where he, in fact lives.

Notice from the photos, none of the bolts are even close to SAE STANDARDS. Even the three dies are odd. They are not 1" they are slightly over 1" and cut slightly under 1". I have a 1" die and it is too big for these odd threads. The dies also fit snug into the press. It's not in the least bit sloppy. It's machine fit from my experience.

So this is some solid proof it pre-dates the 1910 time frame when SAE WAS STANDARD for nuts and bolts. Even socket sets were introduced in 1907. The Model A was standard using carriage bolts in 1908. So the industry in a large industrial city like Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania would have followed the industry's standards pretty quickly.

Even if this press was manufactured by a talented machinist? Makes absolutely no sense for that machinist to make their own bolts and threading dies.

So I believe it was made before 1910 maybe several years earlier.

Murph

Looking at your measurements I wouldn't rule out metric. 25mm could look like 31/32.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I have a press and dies I picked up about 25 years ago. While it is in no way at all like yours. It is a "Knock Off" of a real press and home/shop made. I estimate it's from the 50's/60's and the dies are for 3" belted mag brass in the 40-41 caliber and a 45 caliber. Both wildcats! I didn't pay much and the 100 unformed NORMA Belted Mag Basic brass were worth 2 or 3 times what I paid!

This press works horizontally and could be used by hand for bullet seating or bolted to a table or pick-up tailgate for FL sizing. I have never found a cartridge that matches the fired brass. (think 458 Lott with a small shoulder and a 416 version, but some differences) I think the LGS I bought it at made his money selling the projectiles and maybe primers and powder.

When I was in High School (mid 70's) there were lots of retired machinists with complete shops in their basements, they would make their ideas come to life, just because they could! No reason out forerunners didn't do the same. A lot of old-time wildcats are industry standards now. Think 22 Hornet, 22-250 Rem., 270 Win & 280 Remmington for a few. Canada and Australia use to have lots of wildcats based on 303 British.

Those "50-70" big bore/odd ball dies are what intreags me. I always wanted a "Big Fifty"!

Ivan

 

[BMur]

Overall

Every angle I'm looking at supports this press being very old.
I looked closely at the numbers stamped on the round nose plunger and from my studies of die stamps, those are very early machine stamped numbers.

The style pre-dates block numbers so likely pre-1920's. Those numbers also represent a part number.
The plunger fits the 38 cal case perfectly so the number 416 can only mean one thing that I can think of. A part number.

If anyone has another explanation for that early die stamped number I'm all ears.

So that's going to be my focus. Early 1900's in Pittsburgh, Pa.


Murph

 

[venomballistics]

From what I see.
If I never saw a modern reloading press, and had to shoot from the hip to create a tool to reload with.
What you have would be in the ballpark of what I might have come up with.
Not necessarily optimal, but a logical start point.
The size of the dies seems possibly industrial rather than personal use.
You're thinking garage bench home gamer when you might have to think industrial lab tool made for dies ment for a n industrial production press

 

[BMur]

Major breakthrough!!!!

I just started my research and hit a homer right off!
I totally forgot about GREAT WESTERN DISTRIBUTORS!!

See photos. They were actually in Pittsburgh from the 1860's up to 1923!!!!

So now I'm going to focus on their catalogs from 1900-1923!!!

I think this is where this press came from!!! This is a huge lead.


Murph

 

[AJ]

I just started my research and hit a homer right off!
I totally forgot about GREAT WESTERN DISTRIBUTORS!!

See photos. They were actually in Pittsburg from the 1860's up to 1923!!!!

So now I'm going to focus on their catalogs from 1900-1923!!!

I think this is where this press came from!!! This is a huge lead.


Murph

Do you mean Pittsburgh, Pa.? There are Pittsburg's in at least five different states? Confused??

 

[zeke]

Have no clue, but sincerely appreciate ya sharing!

 

[BMur]

Pittsburgh?

The press came from an attic in a house during an Estate sale in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Great Western Gunworks was also in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania from the 1860s until 1923.

Please look at photos of catalogs I posted.


Murph

 

[AJ]

The press came from an attic in a house during an Estate sale in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Great Western Gunworks was also in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania from the 1860s until 1923.

Please look at photos of catalogs I posted.


Murph

Thanks, now it makes a bit more sense. Was stationed there many moons ago (or as the locals say "Picksburgh").

 

[BMur]

Pittsburgh Steel

I knew a few shipmates in The Navy from Pittsburgh. They all bragged about getting jobs at the Mills when they got out. That was before we sold them out to China. They must have been devastated by that.

Murph