EDC, CCW, HD, SD - Keep it simple!

[chief38]

Was a NRA instructor back in 70’s-80’s and remember many guys saying,” I just want to shoot, don’t need all this classroom”. I would tell them here’s your money back, see ya , hate to be ya. Women were more receptive and easier to instruct and several became outstanding shots. Way to much influence from tv, movies and online garbage now. Sadly it’s “ spray and prey”……

The most successful shooter I've ever trained is a woman who had never shot a gun in her 56 years - until 2 year s ago. She had the desire, patience and willingness to listen, learn and practice. After about a month, she became a GREAT shot! Today, she joins our range crew of 4 every Friday and would be qualified to shoot in a competition league! She carries a Ruger LCP Max as a CCW and shoots a Ruger Mk 4 with a Volquartsen kit for target shooting.

Most Guys, I instruct vastly improve however since most have had some past experience shooting it is hard to get them to break their bad habits. Most I get through too, but there are only a few who I have given up on! No matter what you show them, they revert back to their old habits after 3 shots!

 

[WR Moore]

Brother Parrish makes some great points. People are lazy and believe that they can widget their way to competence. In fact, there's an old adage: "Amateurs practice until they do something right. Professionals practice until they can't do it wrong." A lot of folks don't want to put in the work. Any work.

I've never worked with lasers*, but the red dot doesn't stay as still on the target as irons because it's visually on the target. Yet the RDS can be an outstanding extra tool in the box under certain conditions. But, as mentioned, they take both initial work and sustainment training to properly use. They're a supplement to the iron sights. You have to realize that if you have an acceptable visual gun/target index without the dot, you don't need the dot. Press the trigger.

Building a rigid behavior/training structure can have "issues". A major state training facility trained people exclusively on Weaver stance. After some ~7000 people went through their shoot house, they reviewed the video to see how training stood up.

They discovered that under 4 yards, EVERYONE shot one handed. Over 4 yards very, very few didn't shoot isosceles. They revised their training.

*I don't recall the name of the system, but at one time we had a firearm simulator system that, if the trigger had a given amount of pressure, a laser POA tracker was activated that could be shown in replay. It was a totally outstanding device to demonstrate that the student did YANK the trigger.

 

[oink]

When I was learning as a rookie (I did have some prior firearms experience) I practiced many hours dryfiring with my model 66. I had a bullseye in my hallway and I placed an empty cartridge on the flat of the barrel and I would see how many trigger pulls, slow and fast, I could keep the cartridge on top while sighted on the bullseye. You can really learn trigger control that way. Unfortunately I don't know how you can do that very valuable practice with most semiautos but it wouldn't matter what sight system you were using except at the time irons were it.

Whatever sight system you use you certainly need to practice with it. As much as you can. If you want to help someone learn then try, within reason, to help them learn the skills they want to learn. I've seen the current cats meow in training tactics change often enough over the years to know nothing is written in stone other than practice whatever technique you're going to use.

Under 4 yeards I don't even use sights. Even at 6 yeards I may be looking over the top of the gun but I'm not really using the sights. 12 yards yes but maybe not in an urgent scenario. I still may be just sighting over the top of the gun. Bullseyes? No, but hits. At 15+ yards, I'd like to think I'd have time and mental state to use a sighting system.

In a situation like where the young man took out that mall shooter, at that distance, with my declining eyes, I want my red dot. I'm sure a laser would work well for that too, if it had sufficient visable range. Yeah, not a scenario I'm likely to find myself in but I'm not likely to find myself in any shooting situation. But still I prepare, at least to some degree. Obviously not near to the extent of many here.

I've used the FATS System during training with my old agency. I always enjoyed that training. It was a lot of fun as was the training with guns that shot the tiny paint balls (I forget what they're called), other than the protective gear you had to wear. Even before that when we practiced with the primer powered soft was bullets. Of course with those you were using real unaltered guns which horribly increased the accidental shooting risk issue. We didn't have all of that protective gear at that time and primer powered wax bullets can still leave a mark. Still good practical training and fun too. I guess I got off topic, sorry.

 

[38SPL HV]

…firearm instruction has become a big business

 

[rwsmith]

It sounds like......

...he was more interested in the novelty of the laser than in self defense shooting. He wants a magical gun that shoots itself where he wants the bullet to go. Not only that, he is excessively fixated on it. You did a fine job considering the lack of cooperation and I hope he learned something.

 

[Greyman50]

In AMTU we practiced “ firing” 1911’s using a white sheet of paper taped to a wall, #2 lead pencil inserted in barrel, standing in correct stance with pencil about half inch from paper. Firing pin “ propels” pencil into paper. Once one has a “ dot” it is you aiming point. One can determine what you are doing right or wrong and save hearing and $$$.

 

[Krogen]

I applaud your patience, Chief38. I'd have failed in that regard. First he wanted you to teach him to shoot and steadfastly refused to follow instruction. Second he started out with a fairly small 9mm. Not the easiest to start with; should be a 22LR. No doubt somebody in a store sold him a "defensive gun" when he should have talked to you first. Good thing about the laser is his flinch will be "observable."

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

... should be a 22LR. No doubt somebody in a store sold him a "defensive gun"

In the Gun Shops people never think about learning Marksmanship. It is buying a Self Defense or Home Defense Firearm. Most people will shoot it once and off to the Nightstand or the Closet it goes.

 

[snubbyfan]

When my motor nerve condition started and my hands went all gimpy, I put a laser on my carry snubby.


Not for aiming or using at the range but for dry fire practice.
I'd put the red dot on something roughly 7 yards across the room and try to keep the red dot on target all the way through the trigger pull.
I felt that it helped and I was able to do this at the same distance at the range through the sights.


Gimpy hands and all.

 

[Onomea]

Chief, you are a patient guy!

As a trainee, I feel about handgun training with instructors the same way I felt about clients when I was a business consultant after I retired: If you are not gonna follow my advice, what the hell are you paying me for?

I don't always continue to follow all the advice I learn from different trainers after I'm done with classes, but I do my best to follow it while the class is going on. I continue to practice techniques that I learn that I find useful, and keep others in my memory for reference.

Re never having cleaned his gun, i have been surprised at the number of shooters who brag about not cleaning their guns for X number of rounds. I even had an instructor brag about this. I think the ostensible reason they don't clean their guns is to demonstrate how reliable their gun is.

Just seems wrong to me not to care properly for your equipment.

 

[robvious]

as my father often said when lasers on handguns first appeared.. guns don't need batteries... I have red dots on range toys.. not EDC.

 

[375hh1973]

The only red dot/reflex I have is on my HD shotgun.

I put a DeltaPoint on my Benelli M4 after shooting a buddy's shotgun with a dot.

M4 already a decent sized gun, I don't feel bad putting it on there.

Added bonus is the wife now likes practicing with it.

I have a 6" 686 that I think I am going to put one on as well. Fun range toy and a helluva house gun.

 

[Ingramite]

Widget Warriors......pass the batteries.

 

[YouveHadYour6]

I can't stand them myself, and I'm only in my late 30s. That said I grew up being taught the oldest basics first (IE when it came to handguns, I learned single-handed Cavalry position with a revolver in single action before two hands touched anything, I was taught to point-shoot the same revolver two handed and single before moving on to semiautomatic, etc - Pops was a gun guy) and so may be prejudiced against RD sights.

That said, I also find them a distraction when they're working, an add-on that changes the gun's balance (including those designed to include it; they're far too forward heavy and/or blocky to me - and I do shoot Glocks) and overall just constitutes a problem waiting to happen.

I've traded into some fine RD and laser optics over the years - and I always immediately mount them on the next thing to be sold/traded/gifted away.

Different strokes for different folks.