Engraved S&W Identification

[SWAficionado]

Hi, can anyone help me to identify this gun. I need specifics on model, finish, engraving, suggested price, etc. Thanks in advance.

 

[DCWilson]

Welcome to the forum. That's a beautiful gun with a nickel finish.

Based on observable features, it was made between 1950 and 1956. The actual model is going to depend on the cartridge it chambers. What does it say on the right side of the barrel? (Likeliest choices are .357 MAGNUM or .44 MAGNUM, but it might be something else.) If you can give us the serial number too (S123456 for example, and you can replace the last two digits with xx if you'd like to preserve some privacy), that would also help with dating it. The serial number is found on the butt of the gun.

That is perhaps Alvin White engraving, but don't quote me on that. White was one of the mid-century masters, and if this is his work the gun could be quite valuable.

I have no idea on proper pricing because I don't follow engraved firearms. But several other forum members do, and I am sure you will get good advice from them in coming posts.

 

[deadin]

Very nice!!
Need a few hints.... Like what is it chambered in? Serial # would also be helpful. (Don't need the whole thing, just "X" out the last few numbers, but include any letter prefix.)

 

[Doc44]

The revolver is a Pre-Model 27 or ".357" Magnum that was most likely engraved outside of S&W or returned to them for the engraving (large logo is on the side plate). The revolver dates from 51 to 56.

It appears to have been finished in gold. Price is hard to determine without knowing the history and the engraver.

Bill

 

[SWAficionado]

Hi, thanks all for your comments.

I'm trying to buy this gun so I can't tell you the serial number right away.

What i know from the seller is that it chambers a .357 Magnum, it was engraved in Toledo, Spain. Once owned by Gen Abelardo Rodriguez, President of Mexico 1932-1934, given to him by an unnamed US Ambassador.

I understand that proper pricing is difficult with this little information, but can anyone give me a price range at least??

Thanks again.

 

[Doc44]

The revolver would have been presented twenty years or more after the General was President of Mexico, but if the documents with the gun support the presentation, ownership by the general, the engraving, etc. I would value the gun between $8,000 and $10,000 to the right buyer.

If the seller cannot prove the history of the revolver, I would value it in the $3,000 range.

Bill

 

[2152hq]

The engraving was done with service style grips in place originally. There's more to see under the current magna style grips that are in place.
Take the grips off an perhaps there's an engravers signiture on the frame border edge of the grip,,a popular place for that.

The first impression is that of German or Austrian style cutting with it's relief work and close cut scroll. The animal scene(s) are cut with the same style.
But the scroll style, detail and layout doesn't quite follow through. Perhaps a student of someone that cut that original European style or someone that just admired it.
It has a bit of an American scroll style to it with the elongated scrolls.

Plenty of x-German/Austrian engravers in the USA in the 50's, 60's and 70's still cutting that style along with many still in Europe.
Several US engravers of the period got their start while in the Military and stationed in W.Germany at the time.
Just my observations..

...and FWIW,,that small area behind the trigger guard at the top of the front strap is one tough area to cut. No room to make a turn with the graver. Usually avoided by most engravers,
Just a small point.

 

[DCWilson]

I have already DQ'd myself from advising on value, but i would just encourage you to find documentary evidence of the claims made for the gun's history. With Google's assistance I will tell you Rodriguez did not die until 1967, but he was out of politics in Mexico after 1948. He apparently spent the last two decades of his life in business pursuits. If the gun was presented to him in his post-political life as recognition of his achievements, or something he did in private life to further American/Mexican relations, there ought to be a record of it.

The only two ambassadors to Mexico during the years the revolver was made were William O'Dwyer and Francis White. If it was acquired as a commemorative gift after its manufacture, you can add Robert C. Hill, Thomas Clifton Mann, and Fulton Freeman to the list of possible sources. Rodriguez died during Freeman's term as ambassador.

You might want to research Toledo engraving to see if there is a tradition of individual engravers signing their work. There might be initials on the frame in a discreet location or embedded in the complex design.

Congrats to Bill for spotting that as a gold finish. My eyes saw it as nickel under warm illumination.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Yes, looks like German engraving to me also...

Very much along the lines of those S&Ws and Colts one sometimes sees which were brought over there by US Servicemen or occupational or adminstrative personel, post WWII, and, into the 1960s even, and, having them Engraved over there.

Does not look like Spanish Engraving to me.

Defeinitly a high order of Workmanship, whatever the provenance of the Work may be.

Very very nice Revolver and definitely valuable, but, as others have mentioned, unless the story can be verified with solid documentation, the Revolver must then stand on it's own.

 

[SWAficionado]

Thanks all, lots of information for reaserch, will come back with news.

Thanks again.

 

[Dave Nash]

Hi, can anyone help me to identify this gun. I need specifics on model, finish, engraving, suggested price, etc. Thanks in advance.

SWAficionado:

You've got some great people already commenting here (a few of whom I have corresponded with in the past) so anything I say must be weighed carefully against their recognized expertise. But I'm afraid that I am not as enamored with this gun as most of them are.

First, I too believe that this gun was done outside of the factory. Not that the factory couldn't have contracted with someone to do it in this manner, it's just that I don't think it's cut in the style the company itself was known for.

And while Alvin White (mentioned elsewhere in this thread) routinely cut Smith guns and a now gone specialty S&W dealer in New York City (Rex Firearms) would have guns cut at the factory and elsewhere in any style that met their often international needs or suited their sometimes multi-cultural purposes, I personally think that the quality of the work seen here (while pretty good) is at a level below that of Mr. White or that I have seen from that dealer.

One of the great things about digital photography is that is offers an amazing level of detail that can be sent instantly to anyone in the world. But one of the drawbacks is that the same level of detail can sometimes call attention to things that would not be considered detractions when seen by the naked eye. And that could be the case here but to me, much of the background matting and some of the bordering seen in your Photos 2 and 4, is pretty weak. Not really sloppy but poor and not in keeping with the rest of the gun.

I also think that the uneven bordering/paneling that surrounds the company logo and all kinds of things observable on the cylinder in your Photo 5 are not indicative of a true Master Engraver. Again, it's not bad (in fact, much of the scrollwork seen in that same picture is quite good) but when I used to judge things (based on execution and not personal likes or dislikes), it was things like this, that counted against an otherwise nice looking piece.

I am very impressed with the work in the panel under the cylinder release; although the amount of detail in the animal seen there is a bit lacking. However, that lack of detail and the style in which that animal is posed does make me agree that there is a good chance this gun was cut in Germany, Austria or maybe the part of Switzerland that was always influenced by their German neighbors.

But at least partially in conflict with that thought is that the scrollwork is not really what one sees from that part of the world. Not that such deep scroll can't appear anywhere (and be cut for anyone) but its carved-rather-than-cut appearance is not what they usually do in that region of Europe when left to their own devices.

To me, it almost seems to have a Spanish (or separately, Mexican), if not Mediterranean flair to it, so there could be some credence to the story you were told or it could be (as suggested by others) that some soldier in Germany at some point after the war (and "fighting" the Cold War himself) had it done because he either liked this "look" and asked to have it cut that way or someone recommended it to him. Not that a fellow serviceman in the Mediterranean (or the Middle East for we had bases all over the place back then) could have done the same thing in a land where such a style might have been more common.

And that's the other "problem" here. If you like this gun and it will make you feel good to own, then you should buy it no matter what anybody tells you but I don't believe that this revolver is cut in a style that is widely appreciated in this country. Such deep relief is not common here and not generally requested here either. I am not as involved in this stuff as much as I used to be but having just seen a bunch of old friends at the Firearms Engravers Guild Show in Reno last month over the weekend following SHOT and the Beinfeld shows in Las Vegas, I didn't see anything at any of those places to indicate to me that situation was (or people's tastes were) changing in favor of it.

Finally, there is the matter of those grips, I agree with the previous poster that they were probably not part of the deal when the gun was cut (unless they were a second set to allow for more comfortable shooting) for a talented engraver would have cut the surfaces to match, fill or compliment the borders of the stocks. And, as already pointed out, that is not the case here.

Those grips appear to be carved but you said nothing about them in your text and they are not clearly observable in the supplied photos. If the work on them compliments the engraving (style) of the gun, it would again give some credence to the thought that they could have been a planned-for second set at the time the work was done. Otherwise, they will be seen by most people as merely a replacement pair.

As stated by someone else, the way the gun appears to be cut (with the work continuing under the current wood), I too would have to think that the originals were of the older (lower top end) service type sizing. To be honest that would make me think that they could have been Pearl for those gripe routinely fit into the semi-circular cut at the top of the gripframe and rarely extended above it. Pearl grips would definitely be in keeping with this type of engraving and surface finishing/coloring.

As I said, if you like the gun because its look is somehow important to you, then (if you have the money) you should buy it regardless of what any of us say here. However, if money is a concern, a verifiable provenance is a must. For without a proof that can be authenticated, it's just another engraved gun (and engraved in a style that might limit both its potential value and your ability to easily resell it within the US market).

Finally, a factory letter could be helpful if you have the time to send in for one as it might (emphasize "might') tell you that it was factory engraved (and I doubt that it will) and the location to which it was originally shipped might (again, emphasizing "might") give you some clue as to where and how it might have been cut at some point later in time, if that proves to be the case.

Hope this helps and the information regarding how to obtain a factory letter is available elsewhere on this site.

 

[SWAficionado]

Two more pics!!
Thanks

 

[handejector]

Pay attention here- I know this man, and his engraving skills are TOP-notch, and I do mean TOP.

The engraving was done with service style grips in place originally. There's more to see under the current magna style grips that are in place.
Take the grips off an perhaps there's an engravers signiture on the frame border edge of the grip,,a popular place for that.

The first impression is that of German or Austrian style cutting with it's relief work and close cut scroll. The animal scene(s) are cut with the same style.
But the scroll style, detail and layout doesn't quite follow through. Perhaps a student of someone that cut that original European style or someone that just admired it.
It has a bit of an American scroll style to it with the elongated scrolls.

Plenty of x-German/Austrian engravers in the USA in the 50's, 60's and 70's still cutting that style along with many still in Europe.
Several US engravers of the period got their start while in the Military and stationed in W.Germany at the time.
Just my observations..

...and FWIW,,that small area behind the trigger guard at the top of the front strap is one tough area to cut. No room to make a turn with the graver. Usually avoided by most engravers,
Just a small point.

The gun is not factory engraved.
The Toledo story fits very well. It looks like Spanish engraving done in Germanic/Austrian style.
It is a very nice gun, but the quality of the engraving is in the high 'medium' range.
The grips are interesting. My guess is south american rosewood, possibly carved in Mexico.

To be blunt-
It is an interesting gun IF the provenance is ROCK solid. If the provenance is shaky, it is just a neat old gun with mediocre engraving and interesting grips.

 

[SWAficionado]

Hi, the serial number of the gun is 164567.
How can I use this number to get any historical documentation from S&W?
Thanks

 

[glowe]

This revolver is certainly worth getting a factory letter from Roy Jinks. The cost is $50 and may shed light on where the gun was shipped. It will also tell you the exact date the 357 was shipped from the factory. Problem is there is not much data available quickly and it will probably take too long to get the letter before you need to make a decision on purchasing.

Is there a letter designation to go along with the serial number? If it is an "S" it would have been shipped in 1956-1957 timeframe.

 

[Doc44]

The serial number dates the revolver to 1956.

Bill