Ever seen a bullet do this?

[DancesWithMoonclips]

I was testing a load yesterday in my 625-4 and had the strangest thing happen. About 10 rounds in, I had a discharge sound a little off, not quite as sharp as the others. I opened the cylinder and found the bullet still in the case, with severe gas cutting having melted the tip to a point. Load was 4.6 grains of bullseye behind a hornady 200 grain swc. Federal brass with small primer pocket, federal #100 primer. I'd used this same load for 50 rounds prior with no issues. Started a new can of bullseye, an older but sealed can that I'd taken in trade. Powder showed no signs of deterioration but had a slightly funny smell, not acrid or acidic. Hence the careful testing. I've never had any issue with this gun and I've Got eight years of successful reloading experience encompassing thousands of rounds. Has anyone ever seen anything like this? Any insight is much appreciated!

 

[dla]

Is the timing way off on one cylinder?
Did the bullet move just far enough to hit the flat face of the forcing cone? I'm thinking that the bullet movement was obstructed. The melting is just the normal gas venting.

 

[M E Morrison]

I was testing a load yesterday in my 625-4 and had the strangest thing happen. About 10 rounds in, I had a discharge sound a little off, not quite as sharp as the others. I opened the cylinder and found the bullet still in the case, with severe gas cutting having melted the tip to a point. Load was 4.6 grains of bullseye behind a hornady 200 grain swc. Federal brass with small primer pocket, federal #100 primer. I'd used this same load for 50 rounds prior with no issues. Started a new can of bullseye, an older but sealed can that I'd taken in trade. Powder showed no signs of deterioration but had a slightly funny smell, not acrid or acidic. Hence the careful testing. I've never had any issue with this gun and I've Got eight years of successful reloading experience encompassing thousands of rounds. Has anyone ever seen anything like this? Any insight is much appreciated!

just a wild guess, but could there have been a cavity (creating a weak spot) in that bullet? that is similar to the effect you get with a HBWC that was loaded too hot.

 

[DancesWithMoonclips]

Thanks guys! I've put hundreds of rounds through that revolver and have not seen any signs of a timing issue. The bullet was still in the case when I opened the cylinder so I don't think it could have hit the forcing cone. I'm leaning toward the defective bullet hypothesis right now. Could a malformed base have allowed enough gas out to do this maybe?

 

[rwsmith]

Gosh...

But it didn't move the bullet out of the case at all????

ANY scenario I can think of except a REALLY slow burn would push the bullet out SOME. How big is the base of the bullet before and after firing? What does the bullet look like sitting in the mouth of a case?

I appears that hot gas bypassed the bullet. Not enough crimp???

 

[Oyeboteb]

This is one of the strangest most odd things I have ever seen or heard of...wow...

I have no hypothesis for what happened, it just makes no sense at all to my own Mental Models.

Even Gasses going around would have found it a lot easier to just push the Bullet ahead of themselves...

Mysterious!

 

[DancesWithMoonclips]

The bullet has stretched a little. I can tell what used to be what by the knurled around the bearing surface. And it's elongated but is present all the way around the bullet. One side is disproportionately reduced and it almost looks like a D viewed from the base. There is significant gap when placed in a sized case, presumably from the stretching action Weight went from 200 gr to 141 grains in the process. I agree it doesn't go with any of my models except maybe a bum bullet. Maybe if there was a big enough defect on the base? I loaded these on a lee turret and gave them all some QC attention not saying I'm perfect but still... thanks for the input! Mysterious indeed!

 

[fredj338]

Gas cutting wont melt a bullet. Something else weird happened there.

 

[mckenney99]

If a Hornady bullet, perhaps an e-mail to their tech's. Really weird one.

 

[AZ_M&P]

Possibly a tiny split in the brass that opened?

 

[gregintenn]

I'll be interested in hearing what you finally decide happened here.

 

[pacecars]

Hard to tell but maybe a void or crack in the bullet and the light part went down the barrel? Did anything hit the target from that shot?

 

[k22fan]

I was going to speculate that the bullet started out with an internal air pocket but other members beat me to it. I'll refine that speculation by adding the air pocket was so close to the rear edge and side of the bullet that it took less pressure to collapse the side of the bullet then it would have taken to move the bullet forward. The gas had to get out some how. These bullets are swaged out of soft lead wire. The volume of the void probably should have held ~ 59 grains of lead.

If there is a hole in the collapsed side of the bullet then maybe the nose started out partially hollow so the gas could blow it forward by that would not explain how the nose became a long point. As pointed out above gas blow by does not melt lead. The time the lead is exposed to hot gas is too short. Various shotgun, space filler and muzzle loader wads are not singed by the hot gas. A normal .357 Magnum charge will not even change the surface texture of Styrofoam egg carton material when it is used as a substitute for a gas check.

While I can not explain the sharp pointy nose I can also add some thing that has no bearing on this case. When soft swaged hollow base wadcutters are way over charged only the bullet noses leave the gun as a round disks. The skirts freeze the case walls against the chamber walls. The rear of the cases move back independently severing them from forward portion of the cases. Someone had to run the experiment, right? If you must do this stuff I recommend using a .357 with a huge cylinder.

 

[DancesWithMoonclips]

I submitted it to hornady And will keep the forum informed. It's beyond me....

 

[Enigma]

If a Hornady bullet, perhaps an e-mail to their tech's. Really weird one.

I agree. I would send Alliant, Hornady and Federal an email, with pics, and see what the ballisticians can come up with. I've never experienced or even heard of anything like this.

 

[Oracle]

Have you weighed the 200 grain swc? I am curious how much remains.

 

[DancesWithMoonclips]

I did. It now weighs 141 grains.

 

[tlawler]

I'll be interested in hearing what you finally decide happened here.

Same here...strange one there!

 

[Peak53]

I'm on the side of the split case theory - at least for now. To melt that much lead the powder must have ignited and discharged the gasses forward. If the powder ignited in a closed chamber the bullet would have left the case. This looks like burning powder without enough pressure to cause the bullet to exit. We all know that it takes very little pressure, say a primer charge with no powder, to push a bullet out of the case just to get stuck in the forcing cone or barrel. Defective bullet? I suppose that is possible, but seems rather unlikely. The most obvious answer is often the best. What does the brass look like?

Edit: Someone will probably refute this theory any minute, which will cause me to swear off giving my opinion on the forum after my first shot of Kentucky's finest - until next time

Edit #2 - I went back and read the OP. Funny smelling Bullseye? Hmmm?

 

[torizus]

Any residue or other hints in the barrel ?

 

[boatbum101]

4.6 grs of Bullseye with a swaged 200gr bullet is on the warm side . For Bulleye I use the Zero swaged 200SWC with either 3.6grs VVN-310 or 3.8grs Bullseye . If you need the speed a cast or jacketed will hold up a whole lot better . 4.5grs of Bullseye with a Nosler 185 JHP or Zero 185 JHP are very accurate target loads that avg 780fps from a 5" Govt 1911 .

 

[4barrel]

I think post #2 hit it. What about if it fired and the cylinder went out of time shooting double action? That would make the bullet leave the case and start into the forcing cone making the nose like that. I saw a model 27 do that but it didn't hit the primer. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxI have changed my mine on the bullet coming out of the case after blowing the photo up.

 

[k22fan]

I think post #2 hit it. What about if it fired and the cylinder went out of time shooting double action? That would make the bullet leave the case and start into the forcing cone making the nose like that. I saw a model 27 do that but it didn't hit the primer.

Quoting the original post:

[...] I opened the cylinder and found the bullet still in the case, [...]

The bullet did not move forward so it was not deformed by hitting anything.

 

[fredj338]

I'm on the side of the split case theory - at least for now. To melt that much lead the powder must have ignited and discharged the gasses forward. If the powder ignited in a closed chamber the bullet would have left the case. This looks like burning powder without enough pressure to cause the bullet to exit. We all know that it takes very little pressure, say a primer charge with no powder, to push a bullet out of the case just to get stuck in the forcing cone or barrel. Defective bullet? I suppose that is possible, but seems rather unlikely. The most obvious answer is often the best. What does the brass look like?

Edit: Someone will probably refute this theory any minute, which will cause me to swear off giving my opinion on the forum after my first shot of Kentucky's finest - until next time

Edit #2 - I went back and read the OP. Funny smelling Bullseye? Hmmm?

I just dont see this as possible. The lead needs 600deg or so to melt & not for the micro secon of a powder burn, which might not even reach 600deg.

 

[Speedo2]

I agree with the split case scenario as being a likely contributor to this oddity. The OP said that it sounded a bit odd, but the deformed bullet remained; very weird. I can only see that happening from gasses escaping from a cylinder that was oversized for a split case. Could we see some photos of the case? -s2

 

[pacecars]

Well part of the bullet went somewhere. It is 59 grains lighter so the rest of the bullet is either in the barrel or it went down range

 

[k22fan]

Split cases.

Many moons ago the big city police range sold us 50 .38 special 148 grain wadcutter reloads in a brown paper lunch bag for $3 on the condition that we returned the empties. They used electric loading presses that allowed the operator to put his feet up and watch a ball game while they cranked out reloads. Initially I did not shoot the ones that had longitudinal case splits. They swapped them for good looking cartridges. After a while for my $3 they handed me a bag containing 50 cartridges with split cases and told me if I came back claiming they did not shoot as well they would give another bag of good ones for free. They shot just fine. Accuracy was not affected. Most or all of us who reload have discarded cases that split during the final time we used them. I'm not buying the theory that a split case was responsible for what ever happened.

 

[Engineer1911]

Lead lice or powder worms degrading the bullet. One of Reloading's mysteries.

 

[DancesWithMoonclips]

Just getting back to this. No split in the case. At least part of that bullet went down range because i saw sand fly on the backstop all six shots. I had a spotter too. There was no barrel obstruction but there is fairly heavy leading at the breech end of the barrel.

 

[4barrel]

Quoting the original post:



The bullet did not move forward so it was not deformed by hitting anything.

Looking at the photo the fired bullet appears to be a lot smaller in diameter. The bullet should measure .452 but if it measures even .449 it can't stay in a fired case. Now we need to know the diameter of the fired bullet. If the bullet was really soft and the pressure just right it could maybe distort a bullet. I did that to a Remington wad cutter. That is the base of the bullet in the brass. The bullet nose actually hit the 25 yard target. I have some 200 grain loaded with 4.7 of bullseye and I used to shoot 5 grains in bullseye with a Clark Heavy slide. 4.5 is my best target load with a 200. Heavy leading is a bullet lube problem or <probably not> the wrong size. The gun is telling you it don't like those bullets at that speed. I shoot a lot of 4 grains at 25 with a soft bullet in 45 acp. The bullet could have had an air pocket?