macgyverman
Member
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2019
- Messages
- 16
- Reaction score
- 6
Just picked up a factory sw kframe single action only kit. Wide target hammer and trigger with spring any info would be helpful thanks in advance
Factory single action kit
- Thread starter macgyverman
- Start date
Register to hide this ad
Alk8944
US Veteran
S&W made target model revolvers that were single-action only and sold parts kits for conversion. The only real difference is the hammer does not have any provision for installation of the double-action sear. The same thing can be accomplished simply by removing the double-action sear from the hammer of a double-action revolver. This is mentioned in SCSW. What else did you expect to learn?
They came to be in 1961---as an alternative to buying a whole gun. My first "Short Action Single Action" K-38 was created with just such a kit----seems like the kit cost $2 and something.
For reasons known only to folks who should know better, the name of the gun has come to be SAO (Single Action Only) K-38----no mention of short action (which is approximately 24% shorter/quicker).
Ralph Tremaine
And as an aside, the same thing most assuredly CANNOT be created by removing the double action sear.(!!)
For reasons known only to folks who should know better, the name of the gun has come to be SAO (Single Action Only) K-38----no mention of short action (which is approximately 24% shorter/quicker).
Ralph Tremaine
And as an aside, the same thing most assuredly CANNOT be created by removing the double action sear.(!!)
Last edited:
OP
macgyverman
Member
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2019
- Messages
- 16
- Reaction score
- 6
1955 k38
Thank you for the short action info. Pistol is a 1955 k38 that looked like it was buried in a manure pile then used to drive nails. But timing was perfect and had some unusual mods probably for bullseye shooting. Carved out thumb rest on diamond target grips,2 holes drilled and taped in the frame near where the web of your hand would sit and a big blob of brass welded onto the strain screw. I polished it out and re blued it. It shoots better than anything I own. Was thinking of installing the Sao kit but it's sealed in the factory blister pack and was wandering if it was rare
Thank you for the short action info. Pistol is a 1955 k38 that looked like it was buried in a manure pile then used to drive nails. But timing was perfect and had some unusual mods probably for bullseye shooting. Carved out thumb rest on diamond target grips,2 holes drilled and taped in the frame near where the web of your hand would sit and a big blob of brass welded onto the strain screw. I polished it out and re blued it. It shoots better than anything I own. Was thinking of installing the Sao kit but it's sealed in the factory blister pack and was wandering if it was rare
24% shorter throw = faster lock time.
24% shorter throw = faster lock time.
AMEN!!
There are folks out there as we speak---who can shoot groups at 25 and 50 yards---standing on their hind legs-----holding their gun with one hand, that a whole lot of folks can duplicate---seated---with a two hand hold----with a rest---at maybe 5 yards. It is for these folks in the first mention that the SHORT ACTION SINGLE ACTION K-38 was made. The mere mortals from the second bunch sit and stare.
The bottom line is there are a VERY large number of "shooters" out there with a A LOT of work to do. This can be summed up by the phrase "There are shooters, and then there are SHOOTERS!"
And for those of you in the first group of shooters, Cheer Up, you have A LOT of company!---myself among you. My excuse is I'm older than dirt---what's yours?
Ralph Tremaine
As to the rarity of an unopened short action kit, yeah---they're rare---today. Are they valuable? Perhaps---to someone, somewhere----"There ain't no accounting for some folks tastes!"
Last edited:
OP
macgyverman
Member
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2019
- Messages
- 16
- Reaction score
- 6
I know where you are coming from Ralph. Grew up with dad teaching police pistol training , shooting and reloading as a youngster. Now crossing the 60 year mark and still doing both. But I have a soft spot for the early hand-crafted smith revolvers and save all the mistreated ones I can.
I had a later model 14 Target Masterpiece that had SAO marked on the box. I traded into it and did the same thing letting it go. I think the SAO trigger was just a scotsche better than my old K-38. I found it odd that operating the trigger double action rotated the cylinder but did not cock the piece, as mentioned by previous replies, its all in the sear removal.
Well, here we go again! I have been asked to comment on "Kinman's" parting shot, "----------it's all in the sear removal."
Removing the double action sear from the hammer will, indeed, make for a single action only mechanism. That said, it will not make for a short action mechanism---and it has absolutely nothing to do with revolving the cylinder---that's the hand's job---and last time I looked, that was hooked to the trigger. From here on, it's best guess time; because I don't know the whys and wherefores of exactly what makes for a short action. I reckon, if one were to set aside the hammer and trigger from a pre-war hand ejector (of "long action" fame), and then place along side the hammer and trigger of a post-war short action, there would be a noticeable difference. Then, if there wasn't enough of a noticeable difference to suit you, you might want to then set along side the preceding pair the hammer and trigger from a SAO K-38----that making for an approximately 24% shorter action than the regular post-war short action. I suspect what you'd see between all of them would be a difference in what I'll call the geometric relationship between the hammer and trigger.
The bottom line of all this is you can forget about examining pairs of hammers and triggers (unless you're trying to figure out how it was done), and simply set down a pre-war K frame, along side of a post-war K frame, along side of a SAO K-38 (with the hammers cocked on all three) and the difference in distance between any part of the hammer you might choose to look at and the frame (either under the hammer or in front of the hammer) is going to jump right out at you---big time!!
And one more time--------the double action sear has absolutely nothing to do with how long or how short the distance the hammer falls----from being cocked for single action. The double action sear does have pretty much everything to do with where the hammer falls from when the trigger is pulled double action---it falls sooner, and falls a shorter distance, than from single action. You can very likely look at the primers in some spent cartridges from any given double action gun, and immediately tell if the primer was struck by the hammer in single or double action use---double action makes for lighter hits---single action gives them a good smack!
Ralph Tremaine
Removing the double action sear from the hammer will, indeed, make for a single action only mechanism. That said, it will not make for a short action mechanism---and it has absolutely nothing to do with revolving the cylinder---that's the hand's job---and last time I looked, that was hooked to the trigger. From here on, it's best guess time; because I don't know the whys and wherefores of exactly what makes for a short action. I reckon, if one were to set aside the hammer and trigger from a pre-war hand ejector (of "long action" fame), and then place along side the hammer and trigger of a post-war short action, there would be a noticeable difference. Then, if there wasn't enough of a noticeable difference to suit you, you might want to then set along side the preceding pair the hammer and trigger from a SAO K-38----that making for an approximately 24% shorter action than the regular post-war short action. I suspect what you'd see between all of them would be a difference in what I'll call the geometric relationship between the hammer and trigger.
The bottom line of all this is you can forget about examining pairs of hammers and triggers (unless you're trying to figure out how it was done), and simply set down a pre-war K frame, along side of a post-war K frame, along side of a SAO K-38 (with the hammers cocked on all three) and the difference in distance between any part of the hammer you might choose to look at and the frame (either under the hammer or in front of the hammer) is going to jump right out at you---big time!!
And one more time--------the double action sear has absolutely nothing to do with how long or how short the distance the hammer falls----from being cocked for single action. The double action sear does have pretty much everything to do with where the hammer falls from when the trigger is pulled double action---it falls sooner, and falls a shorter distance, than from single action. You can very likely look at the primers in some spent cartridges from any given double action gun, and immediately tell if the primer was struck by the hammer in single or double action use---double action makes for lighter hits---single action gives them a good smack!
Ralph Tremaine
Last edited:
As Ralph says, "Here we go again",
These SAO K-38s were built for Bullseye shooting. The tough part about shooting a revolver in Bullseye isn't related to locktime.
It has everything to do with reducing the effort and motion needed to fire the "five shots in ten seconds" string the rapid fire stages.
I don't believe it has so much to do with locktime!
The challenge is keeping your sight alignment and sight picture as undisturbed as possible.
A really, really good revolver shot can, in dry fire, get off the five aimed shots with the gun barely moving while cocking the hammer. Remember this is all done with one hand!
Try it. You'll see how tough it is!
Or, watch this video:
CONTENTdm
It is all about classic Bullseye shooting by the great Bill McMillan.
At the 6:00 mark, he gives an excellent demonstration of how to shoot a revolver in the rapid fire stage of the Bullseye match. Look how steady his hold is. Incidentally, he is using a Colt Officers Match 38 Spl revolver that has a short action conversion. You can see the cocking effort requires the hammer to only go back about 60% of the distance you might need with a conventional unmodified revolver.
These SAO K-38s were built for Bullseye shooting. The tough part about shooting a revolver in Bullseye isn't related to locktime.
It has everything to do with reducing the effort and motion needed to fire the "five shots in ten seconds" string the rapid fire stages.
I don't believe it has so much to do with locktime!
The challenge is keeping your sight alignment and sight picture as undisturbed as possible.
A really, really good revolver shot can, in dry fire, get off the five aimed shots with the gun barely moving while cocking the hammer. Remember this is all done with one hand!
Try it. You'll see how tough it is!
Or, watch this video:
CONTENTdm
It is all about classic Bullseye shooting by the great Bill McMillan.
At the 6:00 mark, he gives an excellent demonstration of how to shoot a revolver in the rapid fire stage of the Bullseye match. Look how steady his hold is. Incidentally, he is using a Colt Officers Match 38 Spl revolver that has a short action conversion. You can see the cocking effort requires the hammer to only go back about 60% of the distance you might need with a conventional unmodified revolver.
Last edited:
The 1950 K and N frames were introduced with the speed action, i.e. the short action.
Is the consensus that the SAO is even shorter than the 1950's action?
Is the consensus that the SAO is even shorter than the 1950's action?
I've done the measurements and the math. If that can count as a consensus, the SAO K-38's action is approximately 24% shorter/quicker than the 1950's action.
Ralph Tremaine
And if one were to read up on the military's sniper schools, they'd learn the students are schooled not only in reducing their heart rate; but also learning to shoot between heart beats---thereby mitigating the effects of such on the accuracy of their shots. Right about then one might come to appreciate the benefit of quicker lock times. Now I don't know the first thing about the acquisition of these skills, but I've stood on the line next to, and even in between zombies who most certainly have learned about all this---and shot good scores---but not good enough to beat them! Even their physical appearance tells you they're in an entirely different zone----TOTAL concentration!! And while I can tell you about them, it's a good bet they didn't even know I was there---and if they did, they didn't care---not even a little bit!
Last edited:
Thanks Ralph!
Had a USMC gunnery sgt. teach me a bit about slowing heart rate and shooting tween beats There were some days I could do it but not all. This was with a rifle. His handgun training was all about defensive. All that said my heart rate most of my life was 50-60 anyway and you can shoot between beats that slow...especially when you work at it....with a good rifle trigger
jareds06
Member
How have I never seen this film!? This is amazing and very validating since it's pretty much exactly how I've taught myself to shoot bullseye! I've never received any formal pistol training, only some of the best rifle training for the Marine Corps' Table 1 but all of the fundamentals carry over for offhand shooting, right down to how I was taught to grip the pistol grip of an M16, interrupted trigger control, knowing when to *not* take the shot, etc
Those trick shots at the end were just awesome, I need to try some of those out. Last time I took my K22 out I was ringing an 8x11 target one handed at 75 yards no problem!
Well there's slowing the heart rate-----and then there's SLOWING the heart rate!!
Once upon a time, 8 years ago, I got up from my desk "too fast" one morning---got a bit dizzy like you do, and WHAM!!-----out cold and on the floor!! I woke up about a minute later to the voice of the Boss Lady---saying "Ralph-Ralph-Ralph". Aside from some "carpet burns" on my knees and elbows, I was good to go.
Having about finished dressing a little later, a little voice said, "You know, if you've got the brains God gave a peanut, you're going to be down at the Emergency Room just as fast as you can go!!"
So I was. There's a Mutt and Jeff team of doctors firing questions at me faster than I can think-----one of which was "Can you tell us what happened?" My response was, "I don't know, but it's happening again----right now!" They spun around like they'd been shot to look at the monitor---so I looked too. It said my heart rate was 37. I was out of that exam room and into the trauma room in about 20 seconds---FLAT!!
And here I am today----fat, dumb, and happy!
Ralph Tremaine
Once upon a time, 8 years ago, I got up from my desk "too fast" one morning---got a bit dizzy like you do, and WHAM!!-----out cold and on the floor!! I woke up about a minute later to the voice of the Boss Lady---saying "Ralph-Ralph-Ralph". Aside from some "carpet burns" on my knees and elbows, I was good to go.
Having about finished dressing a little later, a little voice said, "You know, if you've got the brains God gave a peanut, you're going to be down at the Emergency Room just as fast as you can go!!"
So I was. There's a Mutt and Jeff team of doctors firing questions at me faster than I can think-----one of which was "Can you tell us what happened?" My response was, "I don't know, but it's happening again----right now!" They spun around like they'd been shot to look at the monitor---so I looked too. It said my heart rate was 37. I was out of that exam room and into the trauma room in about 20 seconds---FLAT!!
And here I am today----fat, dumb, and happy!
Ralph Tremaine
jareds06
Member
Could someone post some pictures showing the difference between a standard hammer, one that's been shaved, and these factory single action only hammers? I would like to pick one up as the shorter lock time intrigues me. i also want to make sure that I'm getting what i want as I'm sure ebay sellers won't know the difference between a shaved da/sa hammer and the factory sao hammer.
Sounds like a plan!!
What's a "shaved hammer"---and how is it I've never heard of that term in the last 60 some odd years of fooling with hammers---and such like? Just not paying attention maybe?
Ralph Tremaine
What's a "shaved hammer"---and how is it I've never heard of that term in the last 60 some odd years of fooling with hammers---and such like? Just not paying attention maybe?
Ralph Tremaine
Last edited:
jareds06
Member
shaved as in someone shaved down the DA notch on a standard hammer to make it SAO. doesn't benefit at all from the shorter action of the factory SAO hammer
It's actually not a DA notch. It's a spring loaded lever. This one is from a M-49 Bodyguard (Note the unusual hammer spur {not shaved}). THE SAO hammer does not have the lever, but the lever can easily be removed from a standard hammer. The factory SAO will not have the lever, and has different geometry.
