FBI 1076

[BUFF]

The early Norma 10mm Auto ammo threw a 200 grain JFP bullet at a smidge over 1,200 fps out of my early Colt Delta Elite. Warm!

The FBI 10mm loading: The FBI decided upon a 180 grain JHP at about 950 fps because that bullet weight at that velocity gave them the desired amount of penetration in their ballistic gelatin. The fact that it was much easier to shoot than full power 10mm ammo was a bonus to them.

Mr. Hall said that they could have gotten the same ballistic performance from the .45 ACP and it's 185 grain JHP but that they went with the 10mm instead because they wanted to adopt a cartridge that would make both the big bore and small bore/high cap crowds happy, a cartridge that didn't bring pre-concieved opinions with it, which baggage the .45 ACP and 9mm Parabellum had in spades!

 

[Guest]

G-ManBart; you have chosen to speak out against many of my Posts and I'm not interested in giving you anything that might be used against me in a Court of your own choosing!!!

I don't publish my own loading data because there are too many people out there who will use it as a place to start.

 

[dmc8163]

Buff,
I am extremely interested in your citation to John Hall as saying "...they went with the 10mm instead because they wanted to adopt a cartridge that would make both the big bore and small bore/high cap crowds happy...". This is a very important issue. Would you tell me the source of this statement by John Hall? Thanks for your help.
D

 

[nj642]

On a brighter note, Im looking to purchase an FBI 1076, if anyone knows where/when one is available please let me know. Thanks.

 

[gruntsrus]

Originally posted by nj642:
On a brighter note, Im looking to purchase an FBI 1076, if anyone knows where/when one is available please let me know. Thanks.

Hey Congrats on the decision!!

I think my '76 is a non-FBIer but that doesn't stop me from playin Scully and Moulder or Crockett and Tubbs!

 

[dacoontz]

Originally posted by nj642:
On a brighter note, Im looking to purchase an FBI 1076, if anyone knows where/when one is available please let me know. Thanks.

YOU GUYS HAVE TO SEE THIS

Gunbroker has a killer set of 1076 and 1006 models for sale if you have $1500+ to drop. Holy crap those are cool, but no longer original. I would like to get a hold of those "hogue tulip" grips. They are prrrrretty. There is also a non-FBI model in great condition n there currently at $500, not a bad price.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Originally posted by BUFF:

Mr. Hall said that they could have gotten the same ballistic performance from the .45 ACP and it's 185 grain JHP but that they went with the 10mm instead because they wanted to adopt a cartridge that would make both the big bore and small bore/high cap crowds happy, a cartridge that didn't bring pre-concieved opinions with it, which baggage the .45 ACP and 9mm Parabellum had in spades!

Buff, you are correct and this has been widely reported, but it has also been reported that Mr. Hall felt that the 10mm had more potential at the high end than did the 45 ACP.

It seems that the FBI had for many years, according to reports, had sort of the "standard" carry ammo (38 +P 158 LHP), but if the need arose, magnums could be handed out and used in the Model 13s or other revolvers chambered for magnums.

The idea of two power levels in the same gun seems to have carried over, as the standard issue load was about a 180 or 190 (depending on what year), at just under 1,000 fps yet the 10mm could be loaded safely to much higher power and still work fine in the all steel S&W 1076.

While the ACP and the standard issue 10 were similar in power, the ACP was at the top of its power curve and the 10 had potential to be loaded much higher, thus giving it more long distance effect.

Whether the FBI ever carried through with the idea to have a hotter load, I do not know, but that was reported in articles by Charlie Petty and others at the time, if I recall. A hotter 10 would have certainly been the ticket in their 10mm HK sub guns!

 

[dacoontz]

Check out the post started by LadyFed. I simply copied and pasted my post here.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/e...520103904/m/53110803


Lady Fed, thanks for this posting. It would be nice to attach this to the recent 1076 posting. It is intersting that your model has the horizontal lines on the anterior aspect of the grip. And interestingly enough, I just purchased a S&W Standard catalog (2006) that talks about the FBi 1076 and states that those with serial number beginning TEU, like yours that is pictured, stands for "Test & Evaluation Unit." But it also states tht another model with serial number TFKxxx has alos been confirmed. The book needs a little updating because other serial numbers with a variety of prefixes have also been confirmed. I wonder if TEU was part of the original shipment that went to the FBI, or maybe there was only one shipment? Anyway, thanks for the post and pictures. We should have a seperate section in this forum just for the 1076 where we can have people post the copies of their letters, if they so choose? Where's DMC, what does he think about this?

 

[dmc8163]

TEU serial number pistols were included in the first 250 test pistols sent to the FBI Academy. TEU does NOT stand for Test and Evaluation Unit. TEU was simply the serial number series on the line at the time they were selected for shipment to the Bureau. The confusion may stem from the fact that the group of Firearms Instructors that tested the original S&W and Colt entries in the contract competition was called the Test & Evaluation Group. Other serial numbers have been found among the 250 test pistols. And at the time the FBI 1076s were manufactured the pistol frames were pulled from line inventory with no thought of serial numbers and in fact FBI 1076s bear a wide variety of pre-fixes including among others TEU, TEV, TFE, TFF, TFH, TFK, TFL, TFN, TFP, TFX, THB, and THC. I believe that all of the test pistols had the horizontal lines. The crosshatch design on the grip was set forth in the contract and appeared on the pistols at a later date. I believe that all 1076s actually issued to Agents had the crosshatch grip.

If I may, I would like to briefly address the media coverage of the FBI 1076 at the time it was being selected and issued. As is always the case, not everything you read in the magazines of the day was accurate. Just because something appears in writing does not make it true.

Thanks
D

 

[dacoontz]

Originally posted by dmc8163:
TEU serial number pistols were included in the first 250 test pistols sent to the FBI Academy. TEU does NOT stand for Test and Evaluation Unit. TEU was simply the serial number series on the line at the time they were selected for shipment to the Bureau. The confusion may stem from the fact that the group of Firearms Instructors that tested the original S&W and Colt entries in the contract competition was called the Test & Evaluation Group. Other serial numbers have been found among the 250 test pistols. And at the time the FBI 1076s were manufactured the pistol frames were pulled from line inventory with no thought of serial numbers and in fact FBI 1076s bear a wide variety of pre-fixes including among others TEU, TEV, TFE, TFF, TFH, TFK, TFL, TFN, TFP, TFX, THB, and THC. I believe that all of the test pistols had the horizontal lines. The crosshatch design on the grip was set forth in the contract and appeared on the pistols at a later date. I believe that all 1076s actually issued to Agents had the crosshatch grip.

If I may, I would like to briefly address the media coverage of the FBI 1076 at the time it was being selected and issued. As is always the case, not everything you read in the magazines of the day was accurate. Just because something appears in writing does not make it true.

Thanks
D

Thanks for the clarification with that, so much mystery and misinformation about this gun. And on a side note, still waiting for my letter from Mr. Jinks. Will post the results when it comes in, with a picture, if I can figure out how to post a picture on here.

 

[dacoontz]

BUMMER!!! I just got me letter back from Mr. Jinks. NOT an FBI model. I thought I was good but checkered front grip, caution warning is not enough. Mine was sold to Bangers L.P. (a sporting goods store) and then sold to Staunton Police Department in Staunton, VA. Oh well, pretty damn close to Quantico but not close enough. But no worries, I still love my 1076, just not as much.

 

[SIE107]

Mine came from the Ky State Police.. love it just the same!!!

 

[martyj]

dmc8163 I think I have a relative to yours mine is TEUO22x. I was told it came from the police dept. who got it from the fbi to try out.
How do you get in touch with S&W to trace the number.
I have the box and papers but it says SW10764U on the box what ever that means.
I still think they should start production of these up again. Mine is just as if not more reliable than my glock. Im sure its more accurate than my glock.

 

[bad_man_ one]

Originally posted by G-ManBart:
(find some of the data on the old Norma stuff).

Here is what I found:

10mm NORMA factory specs
200gr FMJ @ 1180fps
170gr JHP @ 1330fps
165gr JHP @ 1400fps

Also:
More HERE

The Rainier rep (Phyllis) informed me that the 135 GR can be driven up to 1435 FPS,
the 155 GR to 1325 FPS, the 180 GR up to 1140 FPS, 200 GR up to 1100 FPS

Regards,
BM1

 

[BUFF]

I chronographed some of the early Norma 10MM through my then-new Colt Delta Elite back then. Indoor range, 70 degrees, 10 shot string averaged just over 1,200 fps! The 170 grainers were about 1,350, if memory serves. It was indeed some hot stuff.

The first big batch of Norma imported to the U.S. was pretty erratic. I never clocked it, but it was easy to tell that the ammo was varying from shot to shot from the muzzle flash and what seemed to be varying recoil.

The brass was very good for reloading, too.

 

[Aegis]

If I am not mistaken I have loaded the 135 JHP with power pistol powder and the velocity is around 1500fps. I don't have the load data available right now.

 

[martyj]

I bought all the Norma 10mm gun store had for 16.00 a box and I like it but shoot it sparingly.
I just found out my 1076 was an FBI one like I thought it was but just because I think it doesnt confirm it so S&w confirmmed it for me.
Does that add any extra value to it or not????

Not that its going anywhere but to the range.

 

[dmc8163]

Great martyj. Be sure to request a letter from Roy Jinks.

 

[nj642]

FYI: There is a verified FBI model 1076 on Gunbroker right now. It looks like it was one of the original ones starting with "TEU".

 

[G-ManBart]

Originally posted by KKG:
G-ManBart; you have chosen to speak out against many of my Posts and I'm not interested in giving you anything that might be used against me in a Court of your own choosing!!!

I don't publish my own loading data because there are too many people out there who will use it as a place to start.

I haven't chosen to "speak out against many of your posts". If I've disagreed I've done so politely, with facts. Heck, I've agreed with you in other threads, it's just that I don't agree with you in this case and have asked a legitimate question you don't seem willing to back up with data. I suspect that the particular load you might be referring to would clearly be well beyond published data...it almost certainly would have to be if you've seen the numbers you're talking about.

It's not a popularity contest and it's not about personal pride here....get over yourself man. There was no insult or offense, so there's no need to act like there was. Too bad there wasn't a 1200fps .45acp club that you could join and add that to your signature line....lol (yes, that was a joke, relax)

No matter how much I love the .45acp, it can't do what a 10mm can and stay within SAAMI specs and I simply don't believe a person reloading with cannister grade powder is going to get 1200fps out of a 185gr bullet at anywhere near SAAMI MAP. If someone wants to go off the charts and load the equivalent of proof loads, it might work, but it's not a real smart thing to try.

Using Hodgdon's reloading data center as a baseline (Hodgdon, Win and IMR powders for a decent cross section) they only list a single load with a 185 that breaks 1100fps (1150). The same data for 10mm shows loads approaching 1300fps (1287) with a 4.6" rather than 5" barrel. Even up the barrel length and the 10 is going to have an even bigger margin.

Further, if someone wants to handload beyond book levels to get their .45acp to near 10mm factory performance, the same person could load 10mm to beyond book levels just the same...in the end the 10mm is going to be more powerful any way you cut it.

No matter how you cut it, pressure is pressure. .45acp+P is a 23,000psi cartridge. 10mm is 37,500psi. If we're pushing similar bullets out similar length barrels there's simply no way you can get more or even roughly equal velocity using less pressure. 14,500psi difference is simply too much a gap to fill.

It's not a good thing, a bad thing or an insult, it's just the way it is. .45acp is great, 10mm is great, I own both, and they are both more than capable for their intended purposes, but to suggest that the .45acp can, in any way, equal the performance of the 10mm is just silly....can't happen. R,