FBI 1076

[dacoontz]

Bad man, thanks for the info. I had someone else let me know as well, but didn't have these product numbers, that will help, thanks.
I took the new baby out shooting yesterday and it acutally felt really good with the straight back grips. And by the way, the gun shoots perfectly, as far as I can tell. I then shot my model 27 Glock, garbage. I now hate my glock and want to trade everything else in for smith and wessons. Only have the 469 and 1076 but we'll start looking for more. I am in love, is that wierd.

 

[Guest]

Originally posted by dacoontz: ...I am in love, is that wierd.

Yes, but not unusual!!! I'd be happy to give you a full $50.00 for your "Garbage Glock" if you figure it is sooooo bad and YES I'm serious

'cause if it's that bad it certainly can't be worth any more than that!!!

 

[dacoontz]

Well, your offer is tempting, but I know a few people that may be willing to pay a little more, but only because they aren't any wiser. I guess it can't be all garbage because only a few bagillion police officers use them, but I bet they would switch if they could.

 

[Guest]

Originally posted by dacoontz: ...but I bet they would switch if they could.

I'd hate to take your money. You might take a look at my Avatar - I've been doing that for 30+ years.

 

[dacoontz]

KKG, oh yes, I had noticed that. So what do your guys mostly carry, I am guessing glocks? But, I have to behonest, it sure doesn't feel as good as this 1076 I just purchased. Although I think it is due to the size of my hands. The model 27 just feels a little fat and I find myself pulling to the right an awful lot. I have been told that it is because of the way I squeeze the trigger and pull back. So, as the instructor, how do you remedy that? Other than switching to the S&W.

 

[gruntsrus]

Other than switching to the S&W.

I think you found the remedy!

I just found a 1076 but also own a Glock in their G23. The 1076 has the straight grips, but I'm going for a set of the palm swell grips for my XL size 11 hands. Have you tried the palm swell grips yet, dacoontz?

 

[Guest]

Glocks have a very strong foot hold on the police market but the Smith M&Ps(a Glock by any other name; so to speak) are making some headway. Some Departments are going with the Sigs because of the external hammer. This make for an interesting "issue' because the Sig Double Action Trigger Pull tends to be much heavier and a good bit longer than the Glock. The 'longer & heavier' DA pull is supposed to be better from a "legal"(read Lawyer input) stand point. Fewer accidents - according to the Lawyers. What is being found during training is that many Officers are simply Cocking the Hammer during the draw and shooting Single Action from the first shot! So much for the Lawyers' ideas!!!

I've tried the palm swell grips but my hands aren't that big. I find the G-23 and G-27(with the finger extension) to be just fine for me. If you've got big hands I'd suggest going to the larger Model 23 or even the 22. I carry a pair of G-27s but I have added the hooked type floor plate to all of my magazines.

The Full sized and all steel S&Ws are fine guns but they are a bit too heavy for many LEOs these days especially when you consider all the other 'stuff' that has become part of the "Duty Gun Belt" package.

The 10mm is also a fine cartridge but tends to be a bit hard to handle for many Officers. After the FBI went to the Model 1076 they found that many Agents had trouble getting a 'Double Tap' that kept both rounds on the target - even at fairly close Range. They went to the ammo companies and asked for a 'reduced' loading that would help with this control issue. That FBI loading shortly became the .40 S&W.

 

[dacoontz]

Grunts,
I have yet to try the palmswell. The straight back actually feels great, but if you think the palmswell will feel better than I will have to make the purchase.

KKG,
Nice post man. Thanks for that info. It seems strange that officers are having trouble with the 10 mm cartridge. I found my 1076 tons easier to shoot and way more accurate than the glock 27, at least for me. And I also have the finger extension. I even have a 15 round clip with a grip extension on it, but I still have the right pull and bad taste in my mouth after I shoot it. It's like it takes way too much effort to pull the trigger. Does that make sense? Maybe that is the way it is suppose to be since it has no true safety. On the other hand, the 27 is so easy to carry. I would love to find an S&W in at least the same caliber, if not more, that was as easy to conceal and carry. Anyone, maybe grunt, have any ideas?

 

[Guest]

Originally posted by dacoontz: On the other hand, the 27 is so easy to carry...

Both of my Model 27s are equipped with the 3.5 pound trigger pull. These were standard on the early guns and did cause some 'problems' for transition because many Officers were used to a much heavier DA pull on their revolvers. I transitioned from a Model 19-3 that has a VERY light DA trigger pull. I think the "Factory Standard" is now 5.5 pounds. But I seem to remember a 'New York' trigger that was something like 12.5 pounds being offered. I also have a .22rf conversion kit for my Glocks and they allow me to practice a fair amount more than normal. It uses the regular Glock frame and so the trigger pull is an exact match for my carry guns.

In my opinion a 3.5 pound pull is fine for someone who is a 'shooter' but I also don't see a real problem with the 5.5 pull for the average Officer.. The 12.5 pull is plain silly - lawyer nonsense and nothing more.

Shooting a Smith "N" Frame .357 Magnum is much easier on the hand & body than shooting one of the newer "J" Frames in the same caliber. Same idea behind the extra weight for the heavier 10mm loadings. The Full Sized 10mm(1200fps) Glock is no where near as easy to shoot as the Full Sized .40S&W(950fps) even when shooting the original 180 grain bullet that these cartridges were both designed for.

Smith does offer their M&P line which is very much like the Glocks.

 

[dacoontz]

Cool, thanks again for the info.

 

[gruntsrus]

On the other hand, the 27 is so easy to carry. I would love to find an S&W in at least the same caliber, if not more, that was as easy to conceal and carry. Anyone, maybe grunt, have any ideas?

I have to admit my G23 is really easy to carry when on our private hunting land. Does the M&P line come in 10mm? The G23 and 1076 are incredibly easy to fire accurately. If I were to become a LEO I would use the 23 as my back-up with the 1076 as primary, if allowed. (We don't have CCPs here in WI so I can't really speak fully to the carry issue.)

 

[Guest]

It doesn't appear that Smith is currently offering a 10mm but they are offering 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP. It's just my opinion but I personally don't see much purpose or future for the 10mm. A .45ACP loaded with a 180 grain bullet can achieve pretty much the same results and it can be done without much fuss and with a bullet that has a greater frontal profile.

 

[dmc8163]

Eliza

Those Model 13s are absolutely positively awesome. I have been searching for a Model 13 and Model 10 2 1/2" that were shipped to the FBI since I started this whole FBI firearms thing. I was issued both revolvers in 1980. (Long story)

Your revolvers raise the question of course of how they reached the civilian market. I have been told that after the effort to permit Agents to purchase (approved by Reno by the way) their Model 13s failed in 1989 all the issued Model 13s were destroyed after they were returned to the Gunvault.

Ever one for theories I'm wondering if these revolvers were never issued but in the Gunvault's inventory. In theory they also should have been destroyed. Hmmm...is it possible they were returned to S&W? Not according to a S&W source. And from there sold as a used gun on the open market? But the one Letter has the revolver delivered In 12/80 (I graduated in 1/81) so it was in the Bureau's possession for a decade. Doesn't make sense based on the info I have. Further, if they were returned to S&W that would clearly be reflected in the Letter and it isn't. Sooo...if they weren't returned to S&W how did they get out????

You clearly have three handguns that shouldn't exist. Congrats!!!!

Do you have more information on the disposition of the Model 13s?

Thanks and stay safe, Dave

 

[G-ManBart]

Originally posted by 940lvr:

Although not an expert by the standards around here, I would say that the FBI 1076 pistols differed from regular 1076s more in that the FBI pistols had a unique trigger system, designed or suggested by the FBI to accomodate their strange teaching of "prepping the trigger" as it was so-called. This was most likely the downfall of the FBI 1076 as I understand it. The FBI specified trigger mechanism caused trouble and failures. If they had used the regular S&W trigger system, the 1076 might have survived to be issued agency wide.

The other difference as I understand it is that the FBI 1076s had a unique grip with palmswells that was not the same as the standard straight or curved backstrap grips used on commercial Third Gen pistols.

There were likely other differences, but if I were going to use a 1076, I would send it back and make sure the standard trigger and hammer arrangement were in the pistol rather than the train wreck of a mechanism specified by the FBI.

"Prepping the trigger" which was described in a magazine article at the time, involved partially pulling the trigger back when preparing to shoot so as to make the trigger reach shorter. This violates so many rules of gun safety that it is a good thing this "doctrine" has been buried and did not see the light of day with other agencies

The FBI wanted a 10mm pistol with certain specifications. What they wanted was a pistol that pretty much functioned like a traditional Sig. The FBI did not want a pistol that had a magazine disconnect or a safety. Up until that point Smith semi autos were designed with a magazine disconnect and a safety/decocker. Smith and Wesson designed the 1076 to meet these specifications. All 1076 triggers function the same. This was S&W's first attempt at making a pistol with a frame mounted decocker. The problems with the 1076's were reliability. They were either great or really bad and there seemed to be no in between. As for the "prepping the trigger" thing I have no ides where that came from, but I have never heard of such a training technique used by the FBI.

Prepping the trigger is taking out the slack, or spring tension prior to the movement of the sear. Finger on the trigger, take the slack out then start the press through the sear resistance (or connector in striker fired guns).

 

[G-ManBart]

Originally posted by KKG:
A .45ACP loaded with a 180 grain bullet can achieve pretty much the same results and it can be done without much fuss and with a bullet that has a greater frontal profile.

Have you really seen a .45acp that could get 1200+fps out of a 180gr bullet?

Cor-Bon Hunter 180gr averages 1200fps out of my Smith 610 so any auto should be slightly higher...and it's not even as hot as possible. VV lists a 180gr bullet JHP at 1300fps with N105 powder (what I use for .38Supercomp).

 

[dmc8163]

Eliza,
I remembered something else that may be of interest. New Agents Class beginning on 2/4/80 was issued .38 cal. Model 10s with a 2 1/2" heavy barrel. By October of 1980 new agents were being issued .357 cal. Model 13s. This should help narrow the time frame of the transition to Model 13s. I liked them both but really liked the Model 10.
D

 

[dmc8163]

940lvr,

Apparently I can't contact you via your profile. Would you please contact me using mine.

"They were either great or really bad and there seemed to be no in between."

Thanks, D

 

[Guest]

Originally posted by G-ManBart: Have you really seen a .45acp that could get 1200+fps out of a 180gr bullet?

Yes.

 

[G-ManBart]

Originally posted by KKG:

Originally posted by G-ManBart: Have you really seen a .45acp that could get 1200+fps out of a 180gr bullet?

Yes.

Okay, what load and what gun? That's beyond anything anybody publishes.

The closest you could come would be a plated or lead bullet, and even then, nobody claims 1200fps within pressure limits.

.45acp simply can NOT be loaded to the same ballistics as a 10mm and stay within pressure limits. It's not even really close. Sure, .45acp can be hot rodded to be plenty powerful, but there's no free lunch and you'll have to go over pressure limits to get close to what a 10mm gets well within limits.....and they've backed off 10mm compared with when it was first released (find some of the data on the old Norma stuff).

Cor-Bon is know for loading pretty much the hotest ammo you can get from a mainstream company. Their .45acp 185gr +P load is listed at 1150fps out of a 5" tube. No way anybody's getting another 150fps out of it and be even remotely close to SAAMI specs for pressure.

Their 10mm 180gr hunter load is listed at 1300fps out of a 4.6" barrel (assuming an auto). That load in my revolver with a 3 7/8" barrel is 1200fps on the nose. So, with a shorter barrel it's getting an extra 150fps and it's not considered +P.

Hornady's .45acp 185gr XTP load is listed at 970fps out of a 5" barrel. Their 200gr XTP +P load is 1055fps out of a 5" barrel. Sure, the bullet is heavier, but dropping 20gr isn't gonna speed it up 150-250fps.

Hodgdon's loading data center lists a single load for .45acp with a 185gr bullet that's over 1000fps (1044). They have a few more with 180gr lead that break 1000fps, but the fastest was still only 1047fps.

Compare that with their data for 10mm and it shows a 180gr JHP at 1287fps with a number of others in the 1200+ range.

Unfortunately they used PSI for 10mm and CUP for .45acp so you can't readily compare apples to apples in pressure for the Hodgdon loads, but there's no comparison, 10mm is a much higher pressure cartridge. .45acp+P SAAMI max pressure is 23,000psi. 10mm SAAMI max is 37,500psi.

I've loaded a LOT of .45acp, love it to death (my first centerfire handgun is a Gold Cup Series 70 bought new when I was 13 and still have), but it's not capable of coming close to what a 10mm can do unless you go way over SAAMI specs...and if you do the same with the 10mm it'd even further embarras the .45 since the case web is thicker and stronger so you can go a lot farther, pressure wise, without blowing out cases. The cross-section and sectional density differences are worth something, for certain, but in terms of pure energy there really isn't any debate about which one is more powerful. R

 

[Aegis]

Excellent post Bart I would also agree with you. I load 45 and 10 and there is really no comparison, the 10mm really stands alone with velocity,energy, and bullet weight.

 

[BUFF]

The early Norma 10mm Auto ammo threw a 200 grain JFP bullet at a smidge over 1,200 fps out of my early Colt Delta Elite. Warm!

The FBI 10mm loading: The FBI decided upon a 180 grain JHP at about 950 fps because that bullet weight at that velocity gave them the desired amount of penetration in their ballistic gelatin. The fact that it was much easier to shoot than full power 10mm ammo was a bonus to them.

Mr. Hall said that they could have gotten the same ballistic performance from the .45 ACP and it's 185 grain JHP but that they went with the 10mm instead because they wanted to adopt a cartridge that would make both the big bore and small bore/high cap crowds happy, a cartridge that didn't bring pre-concieved opinions with it, which baggage the .45 ACP and 9mm Parabellum had in spades!

 

[Guest]

G-ManBart; you have chosen to speak out against many of my Posts and I'm not interested in giving you anything that might be used against me in a Court of your own choosing!!!

I don't publish my own loading data because there are too many people out there who will use it as a place to start.

 

[dmc8163]

Buff,
I am extremely interested in your citation to John Hall as saying "...they went with the 10mm instead because they wanted to adopt a cartridge that would make both the big bore and small bore/high cap crowds happy...". This is a very important issue. Would you tell me the source of this statement by John Hall? Thanks for your help.
D

 

[nj642]

On a brighter note, Im looking to purchase an FBI 1076, if anyone knows where/when one is available please let me know. Thanks.

 

[gruntsrus]

Originally posted by nj642:
On a brighter note, Im looking to purchase an FBI 1076, if anyone knows where/when one is available please let me know. Thanks.

Hey Congrats on the decision!!

I think my '76 is a non-FBIer but that doesn't stop me from playin Scully and Moulder or Crockett and Tubbs!

 

[dacoontz]

Originally posted by nj642:
On a brighter note, Im looking to purchase an FBI 1076, if anyone knows where/when one is available please let me know. Thanks.

YOU GUYS HAVE TO SEE THIS

Gunbroker has a killer set of 1076 and 1006 models for sale if you have $1500+ to drop. Holy crap those are cool, but no longer original. I would like to get a hold of those "hogue tulip" grips. They are prrrrretty. There is also a non-FBI model in great condition n there currently at $500, not a bad price.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Originally posted by BUFF:

Mr. Hall said that they could have gotten the same ballistic performance from the .45 ACP and it's 185 grain JHP but that they went with the 10mm instead because they wanted to adopt a cartridge that would make both the big bore and small bore/high cap crowds happy, a cartridge that didn't bring pre-concieved opinions with it, which baggage the .45 ACP and 9mm Parabellum had in spades!

Buff, you are correct and this has been widely reported, but it has also been reported that Mr. Hall felt that the 10mm had more potential at the high end than did the 45 ACP.

It seems that the FBI had for many years, according to reports, had sort of the "standard" carry ammo (38 +P 158 LHP), but if the need arose, magnums could be handed out and used in the Model 13s or other revolvers chambered for magnums.

The idea of two power levels in the same gun seems to have carried over, as the standard issue load was about a 180 or 190 (depending on what year), at just under 1,000 fps yet the 10mm could be loaded safely to much higher power and still work fine in the all steel S&W 1076.

While the ACP and the standard issue 10 were similar in power, the ACP was at the top of its power curve and the 10 had potential to be loaded much higher, thus giving it more long distance effect.

Whether the FBI ever carried through with the idea to have a hotter load, I do not know, but that was reported in articles by Charlie Petty and others at the time, if I recall. A hotter 10 would have certainly been the ticket in their 10mm HK sub guns!

 

[dacoontz]

Check out the post started by LadyFed. I simply copied and pasted my post here.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/e...520103904/m/53110803


Lady Fed, thanks for this posting. It would be nice to attach this to the recent 1076 posting. It is intersting that your model has the horizontal lines on the anterior aspect of the grip. And interestingly enough, I just purchased a S&W Standard catalog (2006) that talks about the FBi 1076 and states that those with serial number beginning TEU, like yours that is pictured, stands for "Test & Evaluation Unit." But it also states tht another model with serial number TFKxxx has alos been confirmed. The book needs a little updating because other serial numbers with a variety of prefixes have also been confirmed. I wonder if TEU was part of the original shipment that went to the FBI, or maybe there was only one shipment? Anyway, thanks for the post and pictures. We should have a seperate section in this forum just for the 1076 where we can have people post the copies of their letters, if they so choose? Where's DMC, what does he think about this?

 

[dmc8163]

TEU serial number pistols were included in the first 250 test pistols sent to the FBI Academy. TEU does NOT stand for Test and Evaluation Unit. TEU was simply the serial number series on the line at the time they were selected for shipment to the Bureau. The confusion may stem from the fact that the group of Firearms Instructors that tested the original S&W and Colt entries in the contract competition was called the Test & Evaluation Group. Other serial numbers have been found among the 250 test pistols. And at the time the FBI 1076s were manufactured the pistol frames were pulled from line inventory with no thought of serial numbers and in fact FBI 1076s bear a wide variety of pre-fixes including among others TEU, TEV, TFE, TFF, TFH, TFK, TFL, TFN, TFP, TFX, THB, and THC. I believe that all of the test pistols had the horizontal lines. The crosshatch design on the grip was set forth in the contract and appeared on the pistols at a later date. I believe that all 1076s actually issued to Agents had the crosshatch grip.

If I may, I would like to briefly address the media coverage of the FBI 1076 at the time it was being selected and issued. As is always the case, not everything you read in the magazines of the day was accurate. Just because something appears in writing does not make it true.

Thanks
D

 

[dacoontz]

Originally posted by dmc8163:
TEU serial number pistols were included in the first 250 test pistols sent to the FBI Academy. TEU does NOT stand for Test and Evaluation Unit. TEU was simply the serial number series on the line at the time they were selected for shipment to the Bureau. The confusion may stem from the fact that the group of Firearms Instructors that tested the original S&W and Colt entries in the contract competition was called the Test & Evaluation Group. Other serial numbers have been found among the 250 test pistols. And at the time the FBI 1076s were manufactured the pistol frames were pulled from line inventory with no thought of serial numbers and in fact FBI 1076s bear a wide variety of pre-fixes including among others TEU, TEV, TFE, TFF, TFH, TFK, TFL, TFN, TFP, TFX, THB, and THC. I believe that all of the test pistols had the horizontal lines. The crosshatch design on the grip was set forth in the contract and appeared on the pistols at a later date. I believe that all 1076s actually issued to Agents had the crosshatch grip.

If I may, I would like to briefly address the media coverage of the FBI 1076 at the time it was being selected and issued. As is always the case, not everything you read in the magazines of the day was accurate. Just because something appears in writing does not make it true.

Thanks
D

Thanks for the clarification with that, so much mystery and misinformation about this gun. And on a side note, still waiting for my letter from Mr. Jinks. Will post the results when it comes in, with a picture, if I can figure out how to post a picture on here.