I am not trying to be a jerk here, but is that the same article that "fully described" that the FBI's 1076's functioned differently than other 1076s because of the FBI's training to "prep" the trigger? In your original post you stated that the FBI's 1076's were different because of the "prepping the trigger" thing. It seems that everyone has agreed that all 1076s function the same (with the exception of the magazine disconnect which was not exclusive to the FBI's guns). I would like to read the article if you have some way to retrieve it.
FBI 1076
- Thread starter dacoontz
- Start date
I am not trying to be a jerk here, but is that the same article that "fully described" that the FBI's 1076's functioned differently than other 1076s because of the FBI's training to "prep" the trigger? In your original post you stated that the FBI's 1076's were different because of the "prepping the trigger" thing. It seems that everyone has agreed that all 1076s function the same (with the exception of the magazine disconnect which was not exclusive to the FBI's guns). I would like to read the article if you have some way to retrieve it.
OP
dacoontz
Member
Just thought you guys wanted to know. I talked with one of my buddy's on another site that talks about federal enforcement jobs, specifically the FBI. He is a long time special agent and has been around since before they used the 1076 and he confirmed that the FBI has never taught the "prepping the trigger" technique. What they do teach is to stay off the trigger until you are on the target. I don't know if that helps to clear anything up. I suspect that there may be some special agents on this forum as well that may have already posted some opinions to this topic.
sigp220.45
US Veteran
I will defer to dmc on all matters 1076 - his post pretty much says it all. I would like to add that 1076s were widely liked by those who carried them, and I qualified a fellow agent as late as 2005 with his Bureau issued 1076. He ignored many requests to return it to Quantico, and only relented when his paycheck was threatened. Anything you hear about agents not taking to the 1076 because of its size or weight should be taken with a pound of salt - I came into the Bureau right after they stopped issuing the 1076 and saw MANY of them in service. Nobody I knew who had one wanted to give it up.
As far as "prepping the trigger" goes, it certainly wasn't doctrine when I came in, but I did hear the claim that many agents had been trained that way as an early justification for the "no Glocks" rule that was in effect until a prominent FTU instructor retired and was hired by Glock. Things changed shortly thereafter. Now, with the exception of a very few Sig-toting dinosaurs like myself, it is an all-Glock Bureau.
When the 1076s were offered to active agents directly from S&W sometime in the mid-90s ($300 got you the gun, three or four mags, nite-sights, and a blue plastic box with an FBI label) I ordered a butt load on my FFL for fellow agents and New Orleans coppers on our task force. If I ran across a 1076 anywhere in the New Orleans area, I'd invest in a letter.
As far as "prepping the trigger" goes, it certainly wasn't doctrine when I came in, but I did hear the claim that many agents had been trained that way as an early justification for the "no Glocks" rule that was in effect until a prominent FTU instructor retired and was hired by Glock. Things changed shortly thereafter. Now, with the exception of a very few Sig-toting dinosaurs like myself, it is an all-Glock Bureau.
When the 1076s were offered to active agents directly from S&W sometime in the mid-90s ($300 got you the gun, three or four mags, nite-sights, and a blue plastic box with an FBI label) I ordered a butt load on my FFL for fellow agents and New Orleans coppers on our task force. If I ran across a 1076 anywhere in the New Orleans area, I'd invest in a letter.
OP
dacoontz
Member
Hey sig,
I bet I could find this info out with a little searching, but what is the sig model that you are still carrying and what is the current glock model that is now standard? Also, what is HRT and other FBI teams teams utilizing as their standard weapon?
I bet I could find this info out with a little searching, but what is the sig model that you are still carrying and what is the current glock model that is now standard? Also, what is HRT and other FBI teams teams utilizing as their standard weapon?
sigp220.45
US Veteran
I carry a personally-owned, Bureau-approved Sig P220 in .45 ACP. I got it on my Dad's FFL while I was still in Quantico, and qualified on it as soon as I got to my first office. I was issued a Sig P226. A lot of guys who were issued revolvers wanted to transition to a semi-auto, so my 226 was re-issued to another guy who wanted it. I haven't had a Bureau issued handgun since. All of the Bureau-issued Sigs have either been recalled or are in the process of getting called in and swapped out for Glocks. The only Sigs still out there are ones like mine that are "grandfathered" in.
Current issue is mainly the Glock 22, though I think some 23s are issued for folks with small hands. SWAT uses Springfield 1911s. HRT used to issue a hi-cap 1911, but I think they've gone to the single stack Springfields, too. I work on an Indian reservation in the middle of nowhere - no HRT around here.
Long guns are now mostly M4s. Some 870s are still around, and I use an MP-5/10mm as a shoulder gun. I think its on the way out, too.
Current issue is mainly the Glock 22, though I think some 23s are issued for folks with small hands. SWAT uses Springfield 1911s. HRT used to issue a hi-cap 1911, but I think they've gone to the single stack Springfields, too. I work on an Indian reservation in the middle of nowhere - no HRT around here.
Long guns are now mostly M4s. Some 870s are still around, and I use an MP-5/10mm as a shoulder gun. I think its on the way out, too.
I attended the S&W pistol armorers course in about 1991. Just from memory, without checking my notes:
The instructor told us that the FBI had required that the point of the trigger that contacts the draw bar be longer in order to reduce take-up. The trigger was the only part different from normal production.
The pistols "locked up" when that longer trigger would over-ride the draw bar - holding the draw bar forward, which in turn held the hammer down so that pistol could not fire and the slide could not be retracted.
While the special trigger was specified for FBI pistols, some went out with regular production pistols, too.
"Trigger Staging" in this notice.
The instructor told us that the FBI had required that the point of the trigger that contacts the draw bar be longer in order to reduce take-up. The trigger was the only part different from normal production.
The pistols "locked up" when that longer trigger would over-ride the draw bar - holding the draw bar forward, which in turn held the hammer down so that pistol could not fire and the slide could not be retracted.
While the special trigger was specified for FBI pistols, some went out with regular production pistols, too.
"Trigger Staging" in this notice.
dmc8163
Member
Thanks Sigp! I went through the FBI's Firearms Instructor In-Service in December 1990/January 1991. I transitioned to the S&W 1076 pistol at the same time. At that time the Firearms Training Unit was teaching the "prepping the trigger" or "staging the trigger" technique during its pistol transition courses. It was clearly ill-advised and was subsequently abandoned.
Thank you, D
I have not located anyone that recalls the FBI requesting any modification of the trigger group. Nothing was requested in the FBI's Request for Proposal for a 10 MM pistol. The technical requirements in the RFP contained the following clauses which were pertinent to the pistol's trigger.
(g) The first shot trigger pull with the weapon in a decocked, or hammer down, mode shall be a smooth, continuous trigger pull requiring a pressure of 10-12 pounds straight to the rear.
(h) The trigger pull necessary to fire all subsequent shots after the first shot specified in (j) above, or single action trigger, shall be a short, smooth trigger pull requiring a pressure of 5-7 pounds straight to the rear. The amount of forward travel required to reset the trigger and disconnector for a subsequent shot shall not exceed 0.25 inch measured at the tip of the trigger.
(i) There shall be 3/16 inch (plus or minus 1/16 inch) slack or movement in the single action trigger pull prior to that point where pressure is applied to the sear. This measurement is taken on the center of the trigger.
There were problems with the draw bars being out of spec. There were also similar problems with the 1076's extractor, ejector, trigger play spring, hammer pin, barrel, magazine and other parts. These problems were a result of S&W's manufacturing processes and quality control. Not any technical request from the FBI.
You can find all the FBI's technical requirements for the 10 MM pistol below. I realize the requirements are quite lengthy and apologize to those who object to this use of post space. But I believe it will be of interest to those fans of the 1076.
TECHNICAL PROPOSAL
SMITH AND WESSON'S RESPONSE TO THE
FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
SOLICITATION NO. RFP 4756
FOR 10 mm PISTOLS
"This proposal or quotation includes data that shall not be disclosed outside the Government and shall not be duplicated, used, or disclosed-in whole or in part-for any purpose other than to evaluate this proposal or quotation. If, however, a contract is awarded to this offeror or quoter as a result of-or in connection with-the submission of this data, the Government shall have the right to duplicate, use, or disclose the data to the extent provided in the resulting contract. This restriction does not limit the Government's right to use information contained in this data if it is obtained from another source without restriction. The data subject to this restriction are contained in sheets W-11, W-12, S-1, S-3, S-4, 14-A."
SPECIFICATIONS
PART I
1. WEAPON
(a) The pistol shall be of caliber 10mm. Specifically,
the loading to be used shall consist of SAAMI specification 10mm cartridge cases, 180
grain hollowpoint bullets, and 5.2 grains of Bullseye powder or powder sufficiently similar as to give the same pressure peak and average pressure as 5.2 grains of Bullseye. The overall length of the loaded cartridge shall be 1.250 inches.
(b) The pistol frame and slide shall be all steel
construction, warranted against cracks or other stress and fatigue failures for 40,000 rounds of the ammunition as specified in (a). Other materials will be considered if a similar warranty accompanies the weapon, and evidence of durability is submitted
detailing the tests conducted and the results obtained. Documentation of claims must be submitted from a
source independent of the manufacturer as well as the manufacturer's own test data.
The FBI reserves the right to verify evidence of service life before the award. The weight of the empty pistol without a magazine inserted shall not exceed 37.0 ounces.
(c) The pistol shall not have a magazine safety or magazine disconnector which prevents firing without a magazine inserted.
(d) The pistol shall have a decocking lever capable of being operated by the shooting hand alone, whether left or right handed and which allows the pistol to be safely decocked without touching or pulling the trigger.
(e) The pistol shall not have an external manual safety or any other feature which must be manipulated in order to enable the pistol to fire.
(f) The external surfaces of the pistol will be of a dark and/or matte, non-glare finish; and the finish shall be restorable to its original condition by FBI gun vault armorers. FBI gunvault capabilities include hot bluing, polishing and buffing, and sand blasting. Finishes restorable by other means are
acceptable if the manufacturer will provide the training necessary to impart the required skills and expertise, and if any new equipment necessary will not cost more than $10,000. Manufacturers will submit data regarding this finish accordingly with their samples.
(g) The magazine release shall be located on the frame of the pistol to the rear of the trigger guard. It
shall be operable by the shooting hand alone, whether right or left handed and shall require pressure "in" towards the frame to release the magazine. Additional, favorable consideration will be given for a magazine release which can be easily installed to operate from either the left or right side of the frame
without special tooling and without altering the frame.
(h) All magazines shall drop freely from the weapon when the magazine release is depressed, regardless of the number of rounds of ammunition in the magazine.
(i) The pistol shall be capable of firing the first round in the chamber with the weapon in a decocked, or hammer down, mode by pulling the trigger, without having to manipulate any other controls, levers, safeties, or cocking devices.
(j) The first shot trigger pull with the weapon in a decocked, or hammer down, mode shall be a smooth, continuous trigger pull requiring a pressure of 10-12 pounds straight to the rear.
(k) The decocked, or hammer down, mode is defined as the trigger fully forward and at rest, and the hammer or striker forward, at rest, and under no spring tension.
(I) The trigger pull necessary to fire all subsequent shots after the first shot specified in (j) above, or single action trigger, shall be a short, smooth trigger pull requiring a pressure of 5-7 pounds straight to the rear. The amount of forward travel required to reset the trigger and disconnector for a subsequent shot shall not exceed 0.25 inch measured at the tip of the trigger.
(m) There shall be 3/16 inch (plus or minus 1/16 inch) slack or movement in the single action trigger pull prior to that point where pressure is applied to the sear. This measurement is taken on the center of the trigger.
The pistol shall have a firing pin block
which will prevent the pistol from firing if dropped.
(o) The pistol shall have an inertial firing pin.
(p) The pistol shall have a disconnector which shall prevent the pistol from firing out of battery and prevent the hammer or striker from being released if the trigger is held to the rear after firing.
(q) The pistol shall have a barrel length of at least 3.5 inches but not more than 5.25 inches. The barrel length is measured from the muzzle to the rear-most top surface of the hood or chamber. The rate of twist of the rifling in the barrel will be one turn in 16 inches. A loaded chamber indicator which will indicate by sight and touch when the chamber is loaded is a desirable other feature.
(r) The pistol shall be provided with fixed, front and rear sights. Both front and rear sights will be capable of being removed and replaced, and be capable of being drifted right or left to adjust for windage. The front and/or rear sights shall be available in at least three different heights to allow for elevation adjustments.
(s) The sights shall be equipped with three dot tritium night sights completely contained within the outline of the sight as viewed from the rear of the weapon so as to not interrupt or impair the dark outline of the sights. Plain sights shall be available as optional
replacement sights. Any sighting aids on the plain sights shall be completely contained within the outline of the sight as viewed from the rear.
(t) Each pistol shall be supplied with 6 magazines. The minimum desired capacity for the weapon with a fully loaded magazine and one round in the chamber is 12 rounds.
(U) Each pistol shall be supplied with one additional,
extended magazine which is capable of holding at least 50% more rounds than any one of the
magazines in (t) above.
(v) Every magazine shall be equipped with an extended, protective base pad which will help cushion the impact of the magazine when dropped freely from within the weapon, and which shall extend the bases of the magazines in (t) above at least 1/8 inch but no more than 1/4 inch below the bottom¬most surface of the grip. The base pads shall not have to be removed for assembly/disassembly of the magazine.
(w) The pistol and the magazines shall not be capable of being assembled incorrectly during the course of normal field stripping and cleaning procedures.
(x) The pistol shall not be capable of being
disassembled when in a firing condition, with the slide and barrel assembly in battery and a magazine in place.
The pistol shall not require the trigger to be pulled in order to field strip, or disassemble, the slide from the frame.
(z) At least two different configurations of grips or grip panels will be available, and/or an optional
trigger shape, as options for the pistol in addition to the standard grips or grip panels, to enable better fitting of the weapon to different sized hands by changing the shape, trigger reach, front to rear distance, width, or other size and shape characteristics. Specifically, there shall be a means of decreasing the distance between the front center of the trigger and the rear of the frame or grips to enable the weapon to better fit small-handed shooters.
(aa) The distance from the bottom rear surface of the trigger guard to the bottom of the frame shall not be less than 2.5 inches measured along the
front surface of the frame.
(bb) At least 50% of the surface area of the front of the grip frame below the trigger guard shall be checkered to improve grip control and retention.
(cc) The grips, grip panels, and rear of the grip frame shall be checkered and/or composed of a non-slip substance with the qualities of neoprene.
(dd) All exposed corners and sharp edges shall be rounded,
particularly around the juncture of the trigger
guard and frame, the bottom edges of the trigger guard, the edges of the hammer, corners of the rear sight, and forward edges of the trigger.
(ee) The magazine well shall be beveled to facilitate insertion of a magazine.
(ff) Six samples of each pistol submitted shall be provided. The six samples representing one submission shall each be fully representative of the pistol which shall be produced by the manufacturer should that manufacturer
win the contract.
(gg) Each pistol shall be sighted in at 25 yards with the ammunition specified in (a) above so that the point of aim and the point of impact coincide within a 1" radius about the point of aim. Point of impact is defined as the center of a 10 shot group.
(hh) Ammunition as specified in (a) above shall be used to test the pistol for accuracy. The ammunition will first be fired in a 5-inch test barrel held in a Ransom Rest. The test barrel will have rifling with a rate of twist of one turn in 16 inches. Two 10-shot groups will be fired at 25 yards and
the average group computed. Each sample pistol will be fired using the same lot of ammunition and the
same Ransom Rest. Two 10-shot groups will be fired from each sample submitted. All groups thus fired will be averaged together, and the average group thus obtained should not exceed 2.5 times the average group obtained with that lot of ammunition from the test barrel. All groups will be measured from center to center across the extreme spread of the group.
(ii) The manufacturer shall submit two sets of Ransom Rest inserts for use with the pistol. The inserts will not be returned.
Three of the six samples shall be regularly field stripped and cleaned during the course of live fire testing. The other three samples will be initially field stripped and cleaned, but they will not be cleaned at all during the course of live fire testing.
(kk) A record shall be kept of every stoppage which occurs
during live fire testing. A stoppage is defined
as any malfunction or problem which occurs which prevents the pistol from firing regardless of cause, and which can be corrected by the shooter
(for example, failure to eject, failure to feed, dropping of the magazine, etc.), except for ammunition failures. The rate of stoppage for each gun will be computed by dividing the number of stoppages into the total number of rounds fired through the pistol. A rate greater than one per 200 rounds fired is undesirable. If more than two of the six samples
exceed the 1:200 rate, the submission may be rejected. If no more than two of the sample weapons exceed
the 1:200 rate, the average stoppage rate for all six combined will be computed by dividing the total stoppages for all six into the total rounds fired through all six samples. This figure will be used
for evaluative purposes regarding the submission.
(II) Any breakages that occur during the course of live fire testing may be grounds for rejection of the submission. A breakage is defined as any stoppage, malfunction, or deterioration of the weapon which prevents firing or affects the structural integrity of the weapon, and which cannot be resolved by the Shooter on the line.
(mm) Each sample of each submission shall be live fire tested with a minimum of 210 rounds of the ammunition specified in (a) above by each member of the Test and Evaluation Group as follows:
1. Double Action - at least 3 10-shot groups will be fired at 15 yards. Each shot will be fired using the first shot, or double action, trigger.
2. Single Action - at least 3 10-shot groups will be fired at 25 yards. Each shot will be fired using the second shot, or single action, trigger.
3. 2x2 - at least 20 shots will be fired at 10 yards in 2-shot strings. The first shot will be double action and the second shot single action. This will test the transition from double to single action, trigger reset distance, smoothness and length of pull, and their effects on the shooter's speed and accuracy.
4. 5x5 - at least 50 shots will be fired at 10 yards in 10-shot strings, two magazines of five rounds each per string. The shooter will have 10 seconds to fire all 10 rounds, with the first shot double action, and including a magazine change. This will test the pistols trigger, recoil system, and operating features relative to their effects upon the shooter's speed, accuracy, and efficiency.
5. 50 yard - at least three 10-shot groups will be fired prone at 50 yards, single action only. This will test the pistol's ability in the hands of a shooter at relatively extreme handgun range where any adverse effects will be readily revealed on the target.
6. PQC - one run of the FBI Pistol Qualification Course (a 50 round course) will be fired to measure a shooter's ability to score and qualify with the weapon. A description of the PQC is appended to these specifications.
(nn) Two of the six samples shall be subjected to the following abusive tests upon the conclusion of live fire testing:
(a) They will be loaded with a primed cartridge case and dropped 9 times from a height of
3 feet to land on the rear of the slide on a floor of quarry tile or concrete as follows:
1. 3 times - with the hammer cocked
2. 3 times - with the hammer decocked 3. 3 times - with the hammer released
by the trigger and eased as far
forward as it will go
In order to pass, the primed cartridge case must not be fired as a result of these drops.
(b) They will be loaded with a primed cartridge case and dropped 9 times from a height of
3 feet to land on the muzzle. The drops will be 3 times with the hammer in each of the 3 conditions cited above, and on a floor of quarry tile or concrete.
In order to pass, the primed cartridge case must not be fired as a result of these drops.
(c) The trigger guard of the pistol shall be struck once by a metal wedge dropped from a
height of 12 inches (plus or minus 0.25 inches). The height is measured vertically from the surface of the trigger guard to the lowest
Point on the striking edge of the wedge.
The metal wedge will weigh 8 pounds. The striking edge is radiused. The edge is flat, measuring 1/8 inch wide along its entire length. The wedge is inserted upon a wooden handle which extends 33 inches from the near side of the wedge. The weight of the wedge and handle combined is 9.5 pounds. The wooden handle is drilled and bolted between two metal
uprights so the wedge can fall freely in an arc.
The bolt is 11.75 inches above the base.
The distance from the bolt to the center of the wedge is 32.25 inches. A metal vise is bolted to the base so that when the striking edge of
the wedge is resting on the top of the vise jaws, the wooden handle is parallel to the base.
The pistols to be tested will be held upside down in the vise so that the impact area on the trigger guard is as horizontal as possible. The
pistol will be adjusted so that the impact of the wedge occurs in the area between 1/8 inch and
3/8 inch immediately behind the tip of the trigger when the trigger is in its fully forward,
decocked position.
In order to pass, the trigger guard must not bend enough to prevent or hinder the trigger from being pulled in the first shot, or double action, mode.
(d) The weapon, with magazine inserted, will be thrown twice, once in such a way as to land on the right side, and once in such a way as to land on the left side. The throw will be for a distance of approximately 15 feet, not to exceed a height of approximately 4 feet, to land on a floor of quarry tile or concrete.
To pass this test, the weapon must be functional when completed, capable of being fired,
and magazines intact. There will be no
Penalty if the magazines are released from the weapon upon impact, provided they are not damaged and dysfunctional.
(e) Any damage which occurs to the weapon during abusive testing which would prevent the weapon from firing shall be a failure.
too) The manufacturer of the winning pistol shall
provide armorer/gunsmith training to all FBI gunsmiths on-site at the FBI Academy, Quantico, concurrent with the first delivery of weapons. Specifically, such training will include complete detailed disassembly and assembly of the
weapons, diagnosis and resolution of malfunctions, fitting of parts, training in the functioning
and engineering of the design, symptoms of impending malfunctions and actual malfunctions, necessary tools and their proper use, and necessary dimensions and tolerances.
(pp) During the course of this contract, inclusive of all option years, it is estimated that a not to exceed amount of 5% of the weapons to be procured may need modifications (i. e., shorter barrels/slides, frames, even at the expense of magazine capacity). Prices for these will be negotiated at time of exercise of option. For the purpose of evaluation, only the basic model will be considered.
Thank you, D
I have not located anyone that recalls the FBI requesting any modification of the trigger group. Nothing was requested in the FBI's Request for Proposal for a 10 MM pistol. The technical requirements in the RFP contained the following clauses which were pertinent to the pistol's trigger.
(g) The first shot trigger pull with the weapon in a decocked, or hammer down, mode shall be a smooth, continuous trigger pull requiring a pressure of 10-12 pounds straight to the rear.
(h) The trigger pull necessary to fire all subsequent shots after the first shot specified in (j) above, or single action trigger, shall be a short, smooth trigger pull requiring a pressure of 5-7 pounds straight to the rear. The amount of forward travel required to reset the trigger and disconnector for a subsequent shot shall not exceed 0.25 inch measured at the tip of the trigger.
(i) There shall be 3/16 inch (plus or minus 1/16 inch) slack or movement in the single action trigger pull prior to that point where pressure is applied to the sear. This measurement is taken on the center of the trigger.
There were problems with the draw bars being out of spec. There were also similar problems with the 1076's extractor, ejector, trigger play spring, hammer pin, barrel, magazine and other parts. These problems were a result of S&W's manufacturing processes and quality control. Not any technical request from the FBI.
You can find all the FBI's technical requirements for the 10 MM pistol below. I realize the requirements are quite lengthy and apologize to those who object to this use of post space. But I believe it will be of interest to those fans of the 1076.
TECHNICAL PROPOSAL
SMITH AND WESSON'S RESPONSE TO THE
FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
SOLICITATION NO. RFP 4756
FOR 10 mm PISTOLS
"This proposal or quotation includes data that shall not be disclosed outside the Government and shall not be duplicated, used, or disclosed-in whole or in part-for any purpose other than to evaluate this proposal or quotation. If, however, a contract is awarded to this offeror or quoter as a result of-or in connection with-the submission of this data, the Government shall have the right to duplicate, use, or disclose the data to the extent provided in the resulting contract. This restriction does not limit the Government's right to use information contained in this data if it is obtained from another source without restriction. The data subject to this restriction are contained in sheets W-11, W-12, S-1, S-3, S-4, 14-A."
SPECIFICATIONS
PART I
1. WEAPON
(a) The pistol shall be of caliber 10mm. Specifically,
the loading to be used shall consist of SAAMI specification 10mm cartridge cases, 180
grain hollowpoint bullets, and 5.2 grains of Bullseye powder or powder sufficiently similar as to give the same pressure peak and average pressure as 5.2 grains of Bullseye. The overall length of the loaded cartridge shall be 1.250 inches.
(b) The pistol frame and slide shall be all steel
construction, warranted against cracks or other stress and fatigue failures for 40,000 rounds of the ammunition as specified in (a). Other materials will be considered if a similar warranty accompanies the weapon, and evidence of durability is submitted
detailing the tests conducted and the results obtained. Documentation of claims must be submitted from a
source independent of the manufacturer as well as the manufacturer's own test data.
The FBI reserves the right to verify evidence of service life before the award. The weight of the empty pistol without a magazine inserted shall not exceed 37.0 ounces.
(c) The pistol shall not have a magazine safety or magazine disconnector which prevents firing without a magazine inserted.
(d) The pistol shall have a decocking lever capable of being operated by the shooting hand alone, whether left or right handed and which allows the pistol to be safely decocked without touching or pulling the trigger.
(e) The pistol shall not have an external manual safety or any other feature which must be manipulated in order to enable the pistol to fire.
(f) The external surfaces of the pistol will be of a dark and/or matte, non-glare finish; and the finish shall be restorable to its original condition by FBI gun vault armorers. FBI gunvault capabilities include hot bluing, polishing and buffing, and sand blasting. Finishes restorable by other means are
acceptable if the manufacturer will provide the training necessary to impart the required skills and expertise, and if any new equipment necessary will not cost more than $10,000. Manufacturers will submit data regarding this finish accordingly with their samples.
(g) The magazine release shall be located on the frame of the pistol to the rear of the trigger guard. It
shall be operable by the shooting hand alone, whether right or left handed and shall require pressure "in" towards the frame to release the magazine. Additional, favorable consideration will be given for a magazine release which can be easily installed to operate from either the left or right side of the frame
without special tooling and without altering the frame.
(h) All magazines shall drop freely from the weapon when the magazine release is depressed, regardless of the number of rounds of ammunition in the magazine.
(i) The pistol shall be capable of firing the first round in the chamber with the weapon in a decocked, or hammer down, mode by pulling the trigger, without having to manipulate any other controls, levers, safeties, or cocking devices.
(j) The first shot trigger pull with the weapon in a decocked, or hammer down, mode shall be a smooth, continuous trigger pull requiring a pressure of 10-12 pounds straight to the rear.
(k) The decocked, or hammer down, mode is defined as the trigger fully forward and at rest, and the hammer or striker forward, at rest, and under no spring tension.
(I) The trigger pull necessary to fire all subsequent shots after the first shot specified in (j) above, or single action trigger, shall be a short, smooth trigger pull requiring a pressure of 5-7 pounds straight to the rear. The amount of forward travel required to reset the trigger and disconnector for a subsequent shot shall not exceed 0.25 inch measured at the tip of the trigger.
(m) There shall be 3/16 inch (plus or minus 1/16 inch) slack or movement in the single action trigger pull prior to that point where pressure is applied to the sear. This measurement is taken on the center of the trigger.
The pistol shall have a firing pin blockwhich will prevent the pistol from firing if dropped.
(o) The pistol shall have an inertial firing pin.
(p) The pistol shall have a disconnector which shall prevent the pistol from firing out of battery and prevent the hammer or striker from being released if the trigger is held to the rear after firing.
(q) The pistol shall have a barrel length of at least 3.5 inches but not more than 5.25 inches. The barrel length is measured from the muzzle to the rear-most top surface of the hood or chamber. The rate of twist of the rifling in the barrel will be one turn in 16 inches. A loaded chamber indicator which will indicate by sight and touch when the chamber is loaded is a desirable other feature.
(r) The pistol shall be provided with fixed, front and rear sights. Both front and rear sights will be capable of being removed and replaced, and be capable of being drifted right or left to adjust for windage. The front and/or rear sights shall be available in at least three different heights to allow for elevation adjustments.
(s) The sights shall be equipped with three dot tritium night sights completely contained within the outline of the sight as viewed from the rear of the weapon so as to not interrupt or impair the dark outline of the sights. Plain sights shall be available as optional
replacement sights. Any sighting aids on the plain sights shall be completely contained within the outline of the sight as viewed from the rear.
(t) Each pistol shall be supplied with 6 magazines. The minimum desired capacity for the weapon with a fully loaded magazine and one round in the chamber is 12 rounds.
(U) Each pistol shall be supplied with one additional,
extended magazine which is capable of holding at least 50% more rounds than any one of the
magazines in (t) above.
(v) Every magazine shall be equipped with an extended, protective base pad which will help cushion the impact of the magazine when dropped freely from within the weapon, and which shall extend the bases of the magazines in (t) above at least 1/8 inch but no more than 1/4 inch below the bottom¬most surface of the grip. The base pads shall not have to be removed for assembly/disassembly of the magazine.
(w) The pistol and the magazines shall not be capable of being assembled incorrectly during the course of normal field stripping and cleaning procedures.
(x) The pistol shall not be capable of being
disassembled when in a firing condition, with the slide and barrel assembly in battery and a magazine in place.
The pistol shall not require the trigger to be pulled in order to field strip, or disassemble, the slide from the frame.(z) At least two different configurations of grips or grip panels will be available, and/or an optional
trigger shape, as options for the pistol in addition to the standard grips or grip panels, to enable better fitting of the weapon to different sized hands by changing the shape, trigger reach, front to rear distance, width, or other size and shape characteristics. Specifically, there shall be a means of decreasing the distance between the front center of the trigger and the rear of the frame or grips to enable the weapon to better fit small-handed shooters.
(aa) The distance from the bottom rear surface of the trigger guard to the bottom of the frame shall not be less than 2.5 inches measured along the
front surface of the frame.
(bb) At least 50% of the surface area of the front of the grip frame below the trigger guard shall be checkered to improve grip control and retention.
(cc) The grips, grip panels, and rear of the grip frame shall be checkered and/or composed of a non-slip substance with the qualities of neoprene.
(dd) All exposed corners and sharp edges shall be rounded,
particularly around the juncture of the trigger
guard and frame, the bottom edges of the trigger guard, the edges of the hammer, corners of the rear sight, and forward edges of the trigger.
(ee) The magazine well shall be beveled to facilitate insertion of a magazine.
(ff) Six samples of each pistol submitted shall be provided. The six samples representing one submission shall each be fully representative of the pistol which shall be produced by the manufacturer should that manufacturer
win the contract.
(gg) Each pistol shall be sighted in at 25 yards with the ammunition specified in (a) above so that the point of aim and the point of impact coincide within a 1" radius about the point of aim. Point of impact is defined as the center of a 10 shot group.
(hh) Ammunition as specified in (a) above shall be used to test the pistol for accuracy. The ammunition will first be fired in a 5-inch test barrel held in a Ransom Rest. The test barrel will have rifling with a rate of twist of one turn in 16 inches. Two 10-shot groups will be fired at 25 yards and
the average group computed. Each sample pistol will be fired using the same lot of ammunition and the
same Ransom Rest. Two 10-shot groups will be fired from each sample submitted. All groups thus fired will be averaged together, and the average group thus obtained should not exceed 2.5 times the average group obtained with that lot of ammunition from the test barrel. All groups will be measured from center to center across the extreme spread of the group.
(ii) The manufacturer shall submit two sets of Ransom Rest inserts for use with the pistol. The inserts will not be returned.
Three of the six samples shall be regularly field stripped and cleaned during the course of live fire testing. The other three samples will be initially field stripped and cleaned, but they will not be cleaned at all during the course of live fire testing.
(kk) A record shall be kept of every stoppage which occurs
during live fire testing. A stoppage is defined
as any malfunction or problem which occurs which prevents the pistol from firing regardless of cause, and which can be corrected by the shooter
(for example, failure to eject, failure to feed, dropping of the magazine, etc.), except for ammunition failures. The rate of stoppage for each gun will be computed by dividing the number of stoppages into the total number of rounds fired through the pistol. A rate greater than one per 200 rounds fired is undesirable. If more than two of the six samples
exceed the 1:200 rate, the submission may be rejected. If no more than two of the sample weapons exceed
the 1:200 rate, the average stoppage rate for all six combined will be computed by dividing the total stoppages for all six into the total rounds fired through all six samples. This figure will be used
for evaluative purposes regarding the submission.
(II) Any breakages that occur during the course of live fire testing may be grounds for rejection of the submission. A breakage is defined as any stoppage, malfunction, or deterioration of the weapon which prevents firing or affects the structural integrity of the weapon, and which cannot be resolved by the Shooter on the line.
(mm) Each sample of each submission shall be live fire tested with a minimum of 210 rounds of the ammunition specified in (a) above by each member of the Test and Evaluation Group as follows:
1. Double Action - at least 3 10-shot groups will be fired at 15 yards. Each shot will be fired using the first shot, or double action, trigger.
2. Single Action - at least 3 10-shot groups will be fired at 25 yards. Each shot will be fired using the second shot, or single action, trigger.
3. 2x2 - at least 20 shots will be fired at 10 yards in 2-shot strings. The first shot will be double action and the second shot single action. This will test the transition from double to single action, trigger reset distance, smoothness and length of pull, and their effects on the shooter's speed and accuracy.
4. 5x5 - at least 50 shots will be fired at 10 yards in 10-shot strings, two magazines of five rounds each per string. The shooter will have 10 seconds to fire all 10 rounds, with the first shot double action, and including a magazine change. This will test the pistols trigger, recoil system, and operating features relative to their effects upon the shooter's speed, accuracy, and efficiency.
5. 50 yard - at least three 10-shot groups will be fired prone at 50 yards, single action only. This will test the pistol's ability in the hands of a shooter at relatively extreme handgun range where any adverse effects will be readily revealed on the target.
6. PQC - one run of the FBI Pistol Qualification Course (a 50 round course) will be fired to measure a shooter's ability to score and qualify with the weapon. A description of the PQC is appended to these specifications.
(nn) Two of the six samples shall be subjected to the following abusive tests upon the conclusion of live fire testing:
(a) They will be loaded with a primed cartridge case and dropped 9 times from a height of
3 feet to land on the rear of the slide on a floor of quarry tile or concrete as follows:
1. 3 times - with the hammer cocked
2. 3 times - with the hammer decocked 3. 3 times - with the hammer released
by the trigger and eased as far
forward as it will go
In order to pass, the primed cartridge case must not be fired as a result of these drops.
(b) They will be loaded with a primed cartridge case and dropped 9 times from a height of
3 feet to land on the muzzle. The drops will be 3 times with the hammer in each of the 3 conditions cited above, and on a floor of quarry tile or concrete.
In order to pass, the primed cartridge case must not be fired as a result of these drops.
(c) The trigger guard of the pistol shall be struck once by a metal wedge dropped from a
height of 12 inches (plus or minus 0.25 inches). The height is measured vertically from the surface of the trigger guard to the lowest
Point on the striking edge of the wedge.
The metal wedge will weigh 8 pounds. The striking edge is radiused. The edge is flat, measuring 1/8 inch wide along its entire length. The wedge is inserted upon a wooden handle which extends 33 inches from the near side of the wedge. The weight of the wedge and handle combined is 9.5 pounds. The wooden handle is drilled and bolted between two metal
uprights so the wedge can fall freely in an arc.
The bolt is 11.75 inches above the base.
The distance from the bolt to the center of the wedge is 32.25 inches. A metal vise is bolted to the base so that when the striking edge of
the wedge is resting on the top of the vise jaws, the wooden handle is parallel to the base.
The pistols to be tested will be held upside down in the vise so that the impact area on the trigger guard is as horizontal as possible. The
pistol will be adjusted so that the impact of the wedge occurs in the area between 1/8 inch and
3/8 inch immediately behind the tip of the trigger when the trigger is in its fully forward,
decocked position.
In order to pass, the trigger guard must not bend enough to prevent or hinder the trigger from being pulled in the first shot, or double action, mode.
(d) The weapon, with magazine inserted, will be thrown twice, once in such a way as to land on the right side, and once in such a way as to land on the left side. The throw will be for a distance of approximately 15 feet, not to exceed a height of approximately 4 feet, to land on a floor of quarry tile or concrete.
To pass this test, the weapon must be functional when completed, capable of being fired,
and magazines intact. There will be no
Penalty if the magazines are released from the weapon upon impact, provided they are not damaged and dysfunctional.
(e) Any damage which occurs to the weapon during abusive testing which would prevent the weapon from firing shall be a failure.
too) The manufacturer of the winning pistol shall
provide armorer/gunsmith training to all FBI gunsmiths on-site at the FBI Academy, Quantico, concurrent with the first delivery of weapons. Specifically, such training will include complete detailed disassembly and assembly of the
weapons, diagnosis and resolution of malfunctions, fitting of parts, training in the functioning
and engineering of the design, symptoms of impending malfunctions and actual malfunctions, necessary tools and their proper use, and necessary dimensions and tolerances.
(pp) During the course of this contract, inclusive of all option years, it is estimated that a not to exceed amount of 5% of the weapons to be procured may need modifications (i. e., shorter barrels/slides, frames, even at the expense of magazine capacity). Prices for these will be negotiated at time of exercise of option. For the purpose of evaluation, only the basic model will be considered.
bad_man_ one
Member
OMG, I had no idea they were that specific on the evaluation.
Thanks D,
Regards,
BM1
Thanks D,
Regards,
BM1
I don't claim to vouch for the validity of what he said. He was, after all, an employee of Smith & Wesson and may well have been a bit biased.
2023 edit: Let's remember the S&W "advisory" on 10 mm pistols with decocking levers - although the notice does not state that the triggers were the part replaced. Afterwards marked with the two dots under the lever.
Also adding the 'staging' notice that applied to all the basic model 39 lock work pistols.
This may be noted later in this thread - but I'm jumping here!
Attachments
Last edited:
Nitrous SSC
Member
Mine is a confirmed FBI through S&W. I have a printout of it that was faxed to me. Mine is TEU03XX
firecaptain
Member
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2005
- Messages
- 73
- Reaction score
- 0
According to the "FBI Instructional Tips and Techniques for Firing" manual for the 1076, page 3, it states "Prep the double action trigger by taking up the slack, but only to the point resistance is felt."
dmc8163
Member
Nitrous SSC,
I have TEU0311. Your pistol should have 3-white dot Novak sights, standard straight back grip, straight grooves in the grip frame and the law enforcement caution statement on the slide. It should have been delivered to the FBI Academy in early to mid 1990. If you have not requested a history letter from Roy Jinks I urge you to do so. Best to you.
D
I have TEU0311. Your pistol should have 3-white dot Novak sights, standard straight back grip, straight grooves in the grip frame and the law enforcement caution statement on the slide. It should have been delivered to the FBI Academy in early to mid 1990. If you have not requested a history letter from Roy Jinks I urge you to do so. Best to you.
D
OP
dacoontz
Member
I have already sent my letter off to S&W for confirmation of the origins of the 1076 i bought last week for $576. I should receive the gun here in the next couple of days. I just bought some ammo for it but i thought I read that 220 grain ammo was a little much for this gun. Any opinions here on ammo? And how long was the wait to get your letters back from Mr. Jinks?
Also, it seems that there are a few of us from the Salt Lake area chiming in on this thread. Where do you guys go to shoot?
Also, it seems that there are a few of us from the Salt Lake area chiming in on this thread. Where do you guys go to shoot?
Depending on the load Roy has it can take 3 months or more. The shortest I have seen is 5-6 weeks. I load the 175 grn silver tip as my carryround pushing it to approx 1200fps.
OP
dacoontz
Member
SO the bullets I bought that have the 220 grain, are they too much? Am I asking for potential problems?
No a 220 grn bullet will probably work fine. I have found that i like a bullet weight in the 155 to 175 area. I have loads with the 135 grn Nosler JHP that travel in the high 1500 to almost 1600 fps. I also have silvertips in the 155 jhp. I like the higher bullet weight moving in the 1200fps area. This combo in my opinion is a very effective round.
OP
dacoontz
Member
I picked up my 1076 today. If I could figure out how to post pics then I would post some. This gun is SAweet. A little bigger than I appreciated from the pictures posted here. This thing is beefy. So the gun has the two dots punched on to the frame hidden under the decocker lever. So is this the final confirmation, other than Mr. Jinks, that this is an FBI gun? It has everything else as well, checkered forward face of the grip, "caution capable.....", and has TFS35XX serial number. If someone can tell me how to psot some pics then I will do so shortly.
The dots under the decocker only note that the repair mod has been done to the gun. Only a letter will positively confirm the status of the pistol.
armadillo66
Member
I have been carrying Doubletap 165gr GoldDot ammo. It seems to be a little more accurate in my 1076 than the WInchester Silvertips, but not by enough to quibble about. Power level on target vs recoil is the same to me. I have not shot any big hardcast loads, I have big bore single action Rugers for that sort of thing.
I really appreciate all the information that DMC put on here and the personal stories from Sigp. This is one of the big reasons I really like participating on this site, home of the educated people of the internet.
I really appreciate all the information that DMC put on here and the personal stories from Sigp. This is one of the big reasons I really like participating on this site, home of the educated people of the internet.
OP
dacoontz
Member
Anybody have a palmswell grip they would like to get rid of for a 1076. I am having a hard time finding one for sale anywhere. Or will the ones listed on S & W that fit the 1006 going to work. I would imagine they don't have the space for the decocker.
Call S&W you should be able to order all the grips for the 1076. I have all three types for all the 10 series.
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2005
- Messages
- 8,020
- Reaction score
- 7,102
I am glad you clarified that you are not trying to be a jerk, because I might have been confused otherwise.
I do not believe I said the FBI 1076s "functioned differently," but instead indicated that the FBI pistols used somewhat different parts than the standard 1076s.
One author describes it thusly:
"The FBI wanted the triggers with a non-standard release point to work
with the Rule-3-violating "trigger-prep" presentation that was in vogue at
the time. S&W blamed this for the recall."
Whether they did or did not is not the point I was making. I was trying to make the point that for whatever reason, the FBI's method of "prepping the trigger" did not get along well with the trigger/decocker system on the FBI 1076. Apparently, prepping the trigger would occasionally cause the 1076s to lock up so they would not fire. This resulted in at least one recall of the 1076.
If you will do your own research, you will come to the same conclusion that I have. FBI taught "prepping the trigger" at the time of the adoption of the 1076 acording to the article I mentioned.
The manual written by SSA Urey W. Patrick, Firearms Training Unit, FBI Academy, Quantico, Virginia, written and taught at the time of the adoption of the FBI 1076 is located here:
http://www.firearmstactical.co...nstruction_guide.pdf
Please look in Section III, on page 3 under the heading "Trigger Control," at which place you will find the instruction:
""Prep" the trigger by taking up the double action slack, but only to the point resistance is felt."
I will thank you to do your own research from now on instead of asking me to do it for you.
OP
dacoontz
Member
Okay, hey just wanted to thank everyone for their "opinions" in this thread. I think we are all learning here. DMC even admitted to not knowing it all about this gun, so no worries fellas. But just had a question, I haven't shot my 1076 yet, so if the gun is loaded with a bullet in the chamber and the decocking lever is pulled, does that simply decock the lever and nothing more or will it fire if you pull the lever. Maybe this is a stupid question, but I am very, very new to this gun and don't want to learn the hard way. Thus, is the lever simply to make the gun easier and safer to carry in a firing position. Thanks.
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2005
- Messages
- 8,020
- Reaction score
- 7,102
the decocking lever on the side of the frame is the ONLY safe way to lower the hammer on a chambered round. Keep your finger off the trigger and operate the lever and the hammer will be uncocked and released to its rest point without firing the pistol (assuming all is working properly and the decocking is performed properly by keeping the finger off the trigger).
Always point in a safe direction when decocking.
OP
dacoontz
Member
Cool, thanks.
dmc8163
Member
dacoontz,
FYI, TFS3559 is an FBI 1076. Get your request into Mr. Jinks.
D
FYI, TFS3559 is an FBI 1076. Get your request into Mr. Jinks.
D
LadyFed
US Veteran
Originally posted by dmc8163:
. All 10,000+ S&W Model 10s and 13s were destroyed as well.
Dave, I'm really enjoying your posts on the 1076. I do have 3 Model 13s however, that letter having been shipped to Quantico. Here's the letter on one of them as well as a picture of the 3 revolvers; all shipped different months between 1980-1981
Stay safe
Eliza
G
Guest
Eliza; I sure remember seeing a passel of those running around in the late '70s and into the mid '80s. I couldn't find one even on Department Letterhead until the late '80s when the FBI changed guns. Then they almost became a 'drug' on the market. My how things can "Change" over night in the Gun World!!!
bad_man_ one
Member
Dacoontz,
P/N 205000000 - Grip, Palm Swell DL(Delrin) - ("FBI")
Are back in stock again at Smith and Wesson, I just received three sets.
See my post HERE.
The S&W P/N's for the 1026 and 1076 are:
203630000 - Grip, Curved DL(Delrin)
203650000 - Grip, Straight DL(Delrin)
205000000 - Grip, Palm Swell DL(Delrin) - ("FBI")
The widths installed on the gun are approx. using a vernier/dial indicator:
Curved - 1.075" Wide
Straight - 1.085" Wide
Palm Swell -("FBI") - 1.235" Wide
Regards,
BM1
