FBI 459

[fuzzymcnab]

Looking for information on these or other special 459s. I have to plead ignorance on most second gen guns. Primarily I am looking for data on serial # ranges and finish variants. I have had my share of 39s and 59s and know what their original blue looks like. Where all of the blue 459s bright blue also? I have read about US government procured 459s that had matte blue. Was that finish ever used on commercial 459s?
Thanks in advance for all the pending wisdom.
Fuzzy

 

[snw19_357]

Where all of the blue 459s bright blue also? I have read about US government procured 459s that had matte blue.

No, all blue 459s are not bright blue.
The 30 XM9, the pistols delivered to the FBI, the XM10 guns, and some US Customs guns were all a matte blue and had the dull black nylon stocks.
There were also 803 pistols, sometimes called 'FBI guns', that were made not for government agencies but with those features required for the FBI, State Department, etc. S&W considered making the finish the standard finish for 459s but did not.

Was that finish ever used on commercial 459s?

The only commercial 459s with the matte finish were the 803 in the A880994~A881956 range.
However, it was the standard finish on the 469s and then also the 5904s.

 

[fuzzymcnab]

Snw,

Thanks for the help. Through continued research I found exactly the info you provided. I have also seen the 803 FBI guns referred to as FBI overruns. I believe the grips were supposed to be a non standard material in an attempt to make them less breakable.
Nonetheless, I appreciate your confirmation of what I learned. I ended up buying the pair I found. They match all those parameters, and they were NIB, consecutive serial numbers.
Regards, fuzzy.

 

[snw19_357]

I believe the grips were supposed to be a non standard material in an attempt to make them less breakable.

Right, a nylon. Now those I have seen (and have) on other 459s too. (but stocks can be swapped)

Nonetheless, I appreciate your confirmation of what I learned.

Good to hear it was confirmation and not contradiction.

I ended up buying the pair I found. They match all those parameters, and they were NIB, consecutive serial numbers.

Now that I think you have to expand on, and post pictures of!!

That sixth digit in the 10 digit product code is the finish.
If you look at the upper right corner of the label (below), you can see there's another label underneath. I've wondered if most have two labels also.

 

[fuzzymcnab]

Thanks for the pic. Yours looks very nice. Mine were sentenced to 10 days in jail, so no pics yet. Very interesting about the label. Both guns are in the boxes with all the accessories. I will check (gingerly) the labels when they are paroled. Both guns also have a little number 4 sticker on them.

 

[snw19_357]

For two of them, I'd wait ten days.

I think if there's two labels it will be easy to see.
As you can see, my box didn't stand up as well as the pistol and the label was already peeling.
Guess whatever applied it was right handed.

 

[fuzzymcnab]

Correction. I meant to say that the GRIPS had a little number four sticker on them. Call me crazy, but the fit and finish on these guns (as is in your picture also) is better than any 1st, 2nd, or 3 gen I have owned. Flawless matte blue, no machining marks whatsoever. Looks like special care went into this run.

 

[GG386]

As far as the product code and special order code, would they be all the same as snw19_357 example?

 

[fuzzymcnab]

GG,

I will pick them up in a few days and will let you know. Both guns came with their boxes.
fuzzy

 

[snw19_357]

As far as the product code and special order code, would they be all the same as snw19_357 example?

Not with S&W.

Attached is a label from a matte blue 459 from the 803 and it has pc: 103004 (4590014903), Spec Ord: 4256.
But, this box clearly only has one label on it. Did it have two and the other just fell off? Is this the label under the 2nd on mine?

 

[GG386]

Not with S&W.

Attached is a label from a matte blue 459 from the 803 and it has pc: 103004 (4590014903), Spec Ord: 4256.
But, this box clearly only has one label on it. Did it have two and the other just fell off? Is this the label under the 2nd on mine?

This label is a better match to mine but still the spec. ord. code is not the same (off by one). There seems to have been an issue with the labels- ended up finding mine laying next to the box but there wasn't another label underneath the original one.

The little yellow circle with a "4" in it, is on the left panel on mine and I noticed that yours either wasn't there or possibly on the other side.

Any idea what the digits stand for above the Model No. header?

 

[shawn mccarver]

This label is a better match to mine but still the spec. ord. code is not the same (off by one). There seems to have been an issue with the labels- ended up finding mine laying next to the box but there wasn't another label underneath the original one.

The little yellow circle with a "4" in it, is on the left panel on mine and I noticed that yours either wasn't there or possibly on the other side.

Any idea what the digits stand for above the Model No. header?

Aren't the special order codes just the Julian Date of manufacture? Example 4256 would be the 256th day of probably 1994 in this case? Wouldn't that explain why one of the special order numbers is "off by one" if the date it was completed was one day before or after?

 

[GG386]

Aren't the special order codes just the Julian Date of manufacture? Example 4256 would be the 256th day of probably 1994 in this case? Wouldn't that explain why one of the special order numbers is "off by one" if the date it was completed was one day before or after?

If you look at the serial # on the 1st pic that 357 posts, it is an earlier number which mean that it should have a smaller 4 digit for the spec. ord., but it's not.............

 

[snw19_357]

This label is a better match to mine but still the spec. ord. code is not the same (off by one).

One higher or lower?

The little yellow circle with a "4" in it, is on the left panel on mine and I noticed that yours either wasn't there or possibly on the other side.

Nothing like that on mine.

Any idea what the digits stand for above the Model No. header?

No idea!
I can't see any rhyme or reason in them. No consistency between models or anything. I have seen plenty of the same style labels without those numbers too.

 

[fuzzymcnab]

So, the end of the story. Here are my guns. GG, both of mine have the #4 sticker on the stocks, both on the left stock. . My boxes appear to have only one label each. Mine may also shed some light on the order # question. My guns are consecutive serial numbers, and, although you cannot see the last for digits, the lower of the two serial #'s has the higher order #, and as you can see, they are one digit apart. Now what about the number in the top left hand corner?
fuzzy

 

[HCH]

Nice find. Would you mind sharing how much they cost you?
Kind of helps others know fair prices. Thanks.

 

[GG386]

One higher or lower?

One higher, with my serial slightly higher than your second pic

Nothing like that on mine.

I would guess depending on use that sticker may have give up the ghost

No idea!
I can't see any rhyme or reason in them. No consistency between models or anything. I have seen plenty of the same style labels without those numbers too.

It's like you said earlier- it's S&W!!

So, the end of the story. Here are my guns. GG, both of mine have the #4 sticker on the stocks, both on the left stock. . My boxes appear to have only one label each. Mine may also shed some light on the order # question. My guns are consecutive serial numbers, and, although you cannot see the last for digits, the lower of the two serial #'s has the higher order #, and as you can see, they are one digit apart. Now what about the number in the top left hand corner?
fuzzy

Fuzz, those are some nice examples. If I were a betting man, my money would be that those are the only (2) consecutives on the planet (at least under one roof)

 

[GG386]

Nice find. Would you mind sharing how much they cost you?
Kind of helps others know fair prices. Thanks.

More intriguing is the person who had the foresight to peg it as a future collectible! IIRC, most of these (maybe all of them) went to one dealer, but don't quote me on this...

 

[snw19_357]

Very, Very nice fuzzymcnab. Envious.

After seeing your labels, I just couldn't take it anymore and sadly (thankfully) was easily able to peel the 2nd label off...

It'll be tomorrow for a pic but the label underneath has 103004 (4590014903) on it, Spec Ord 4256.

That kinda makes me wonder if they took them out 12 days later and refinished them (4268-4256) or just gave them their own product code two weeks later (and then since the labels were [re]printed, a new Julian date).
The three numbers in the upper left on label #2 are 115 but on the first, 040...
The SCS&W 3rd does mention the 803 'FBI' guns but not product code 103011.

IIRC, most of these (maybe all of them) went to one dealer, but don't quote me on this...

Yes. Attached is the 04/04/85 letter from LSI to Valley Gun Distributors talking about the '803 non-glare blue 459s' but they only list 385 serial numbers...where (what) are the other 418??

 

[grif684]

Maybe it's just me, but when I look at the blown up version of fuzzy's two box labels, it appears that they had another label stuck over them at one time, if you notice the labels appear to have some adhesive staining, and you can clearly see the outline of another label on the one pictured on the bottom.......there is clearly some adhesive above the label, and a correspondind paralell line in the staining along the bottom of the existing label......

 

[GG386]

Very, Very nice fuzzymcnab. Envious.

After seeing your labels, I just couldn't take it anymore and sadly (thankfully) was easily able to peel the 2nd label off...

It'll be tomorrow for a pic but the label underneath has 103004 (4590014903) on it, Spec Ord 4256.

That kinda makes me wonder if they took them out 12 days later and refinished them (4268-4256) or just gave them their own product code two weeks later (and then since the labels were [re]printed, a new Julian date).
The three numbers in the upper left on label #2 are 115 but on the first, 040...
The SCS&W 3rd does mention the 803 'FBI' guns but not product code 103011.


Yes. Attached is the 04/04/85 letter from LSI to Valley Gun Distributors talking about the '803 non-glare blue 459s' but they only list 385 serial numbers...where (what) are the other 418??

I noted that as well (lack of 103011)

Did you notice that all of these in this thread have a yellow sharpie mark underneath the serial? The letter references 803 units, that's a lot of guns to buy in one lot, no less the same model! What's the chance of a block letter and changed the vendor name as they were shipped out from the factory? Nothing like a good old S&W conspiracy.........

 

[snw19_357]

One higher, with my serial slightly higher than your second pic

...and fuzzymcnab has one with one lower.

Did you notice that all of these in this thread have a yellow sharpie mark underneath the serial?

Yes. But why?

The letter references 803 units, that's a lot of guns to buy in one lot, no less the same model! What's the chance of a block letter and changed the vendor name as they were shipped out from the factory? Nothing like a good old S&W conspiracy.........

Makes sense to me. Especially since the letter mentions they were considering using this finish as standard on future 459s. Why send them all to just one distributor on one end of the country? You'd get a better feel if you spread them out.

Also, mine is NOT one of them listed in the letter. I'd love to see another version of this letter made out to another distributor with mine listed.
fuzzymcnab and GG386, are yours listed on it?

I'm going to have to letter mine. I am now extremely curious where it went.

I also think this letter is the perfect illustration that S&W did not use serial numbers in order and to exhaustion. The group sent to Valley Gun is not A881000-A881384, it spans A880994~A881956 and there are a lot of gaps.

Also (), 0994-1956 is over 960 of them. If there were only 803, what are the others? Standard blue 459s or even other models?

 

[shawn mccarver]

If you look at the serial # on the 1st pic that 357 posts, it is an earlier number which mean that it should have a smaller 4 digit for the spec. ord., but it's not.............

S&W did not necessarily complete guns in serial number order, so that is not necessarily the case.

 

[GG386]

...and fuzzymcnab has one with one lower.


Yes. But why?




Also, mine is NOT one of them listed in the letter. I'd love to see another version of this letter made out to another distributor with mine listed.
fuzzymcnab and GG386, are yours listed on it?

Mine is on the list and there was a copy of the letter in the box

S&W did not necessarily complete guns in serial number order, so that is not necessarily the case.

Makes sense, S&W is not alone on doing this

 

[fuzzymcnab]

Hi Guys.

Sorry for the slow response; December is my busiest month.
Don't mind sharing cost. I paid $1250 for the pair.
Regarding grip stickers, I am afraid these won't get shot. I dont think the owner ever did, so I am going to leave them that way.
If I did not mention it before, I sent off a letter request to Roy as soon I as bought them. Will post as soon as I get.
Both of my guns are on the Valley gun list.
Thanks again to all. This is what I love about older smith autos. The history of certain guns just fascinates me. I think we need a S&W autos convention in Vegas so we can drink and talk pistols for 2 days.
fuzzy

 

[chief1911]

Finish codes

Can you help me out. You said the sixth digit is the finish code, then what is the B under Finish mean. Thanks

Right, a nylon. Now those I have seen (and have) on other 459s too. (but stocks can be swapped)


Good to hear it was confirmation and not contradiction.


Now that I think you have to expand on, and post pictures of!!

That sixth digit in the 10 digit product code is the finish.
If you look at the upper right corner of the label (below), you can see there's another label underneath. I've wondered if most have two labels also.

 

[jimbo728]

WOW.... jaw dropping consecutive special finish 459`s. find there,sir.
Jim

 

[triaxle]

I have one that's mint but no box . It was listed for sale for a long time no one new what it was . I looked at it for a year then went for it . Its on the list . Also picked up a mint Smith ASP at a show with shoulder holster for 275 no one new what it was

 

[punisher1123]

Special S&W 459

Happy New Year and best wishes to all in 2015.

I happen to have a 459 that I bought back 2003 here in
San Antonio, TX. It was used from a pawn shop, so I have no box and no info on it except for model and serial number A881500 which I believe is on the list that SNW 19 357 provided. So does that mean I just happened to stumble onto a special 459????

 

[FirebirdV8]

Happy New Year and best wishes to all in 2015.

I happen to have a 459 that I bought back 2003 here in
San Antonio, TX. It was used from a pawn shop, so I have no box and no info on it except for model and serial number A881500 which I believe is on the list that SNW 19 357 provided. So does that mean I just happened to stumble onto a special 459????

It looks like you did luck into an FBI 459. I would get a letter from S&W and you'll have raised the value of your pistol.