FBI Miami shootout

[3rd Gen Neal]

As we all know the big shootout in Miami back in '85 was what led to the FBI going to the 1076 10mm. Anyways, I had never really heard the whole story but on that show FBI files, season 2 it shows the whole story. The episode is called Firefight. Those poor FBI guys, the scumbags just mowed em down w-a Ruger Mini-14.

 

[7.62foryou]

Originally posted by 3rd Gen Neal:
As we all know the big shootout in Miami back in '85 was what led to the FBI going to the 1076 10mm. Anyways, I had never really heard the whole story but on that show FBI files, season 2 it shows the whole story. The episode is called Firefight. Those poor FBI guys, the scumbags just mowed em down w-a Ruger Mini-14.

Poor FBI guys fired almost 100 rounds and got less than 10 hits. Poor shots those FBI guys it would seem to me. They were out shot no doubt out gunned is debateable.

 

[Andy Taylor]

There is a good, made for TV movie called "In the Line of Duty-The FBI Murders". It is based on the incident. A lot of the story line is fiction, but from what I understand, the shootout scene is pretty much the way it happened. It is available on Netflix.

7.62-For whatever reason, the agents involed were not prepared for what happened, but they should have been. Agents Dove and Grogan, however, did not die in vain. That incident lead to improvements nationwide & worldwide, in the way LE approach similar situations.

 

[Snapping Twig]

As I recall, both perps were shot and mortally wounded, but still in the fight when they killed the agents.

This led to the .40 S&W as the preferred round after exhaustive research by the FBI.

Interesting study.

 

[crofoot629]

Poor FBI guys fired almost 100 rounds and got less than 10 hits. Poor shots those FBI guys it would seem to me. They were out shot no doubt out gunned is debateable.

7.62, that's an interesting view. So what is your background to make such a statement? Have you ever gone in harms way, other then verbally from you keyboard that is?

BTW, it was almost 25 years ago, why do you think LE does it differently now?

Emory

Emory

 

[3rd Gen Neal]

7.62, that's an interesting view. So what is your background to make such a statement? Have you ever gone in harms way, other then verbally from you keyboard that is?

No doubt, what a sorry reply that was. Ok 7.62 lets see how well you do with a handgun while a couple crazy dudes are sprayin .223 and buckshot at you...my goodness

 

[mississippi revolverman]

Good shots, bad shots, out gunned I think the issue is Officers lost their life for us. I was attempting to locate a place in Miami one Saturady and came across the spot of the shooting. A large placard told the events. It was very somber for me. Spot is 1 block off South Dixie Highway at 12201 S.W. 82 Ave

The event was April 11, 1986. Read about the details at Wikipedia

 

[rundownfid]

BTW, it was almost 25 years ago, why do you think LE does it differently now?

Perhaps the mistakes the FBI made were not in vain, but they wee made. The FBI agents involved were seeking these specific killers. When they found them they, weren't wearing vests, they lost guns and glasses in the auto accident, and then were without long arms, despite knowing it was the MO of the perps to carry them.

One speaks ill of the dead at a certain risk; but those officers were not ready for what happened, despite the fact that finding and arresting those very suspects is what they were attempting to do.

A "plan" that has disastrous consequences when it works is not much of a plan. It is good they do things differently now. Too bad good men had to die and be injured to learn those lessons.

 

[roundgunner]

I think injured is a understatement, if my memory is right one of them walked around the car and point blank shot a couple agents just for kicks. The agents were out of the fight and contenuing to shoot them did nothing to help them escape. Scum of the earth, murdering *#@$%&!

The worst part is there are more just like them and they walk among us! This knowledge is why I practice Mozambique's.

 

[badam0112]

It was a combination of things. The initial car accident knocked Agent Grogan's glasses off and caused 2 other agents to lose their revolvers. Platt was hit 12 times, but wasn't stopped until a .357 hit him at nearly point blank range. The other agent who was killed, Dove, had his pistol disabled after it was hit by a round from Platt. Unfortunately, Platt was very lucky that day. If the scenario played out 99 more times, it couldn't possibly have ended as badly for the agents as it did. Matix was basically out of the fight from the beginning. Platt did all the damage. Here is a breakdown from Wiki on how many rounds were fired and by whom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

Agents
Richard Manauzzi: lost control of weapon in the initial vehicle collision, no shots fired. Minor injuries from shotgun pellets.[24]
Gordon McNeill: S&W M19-3 .357 Magnum revolver, 6 rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously injured by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and neck
Edmundo Mireles: Remington M870 12 gauge shotgun, 5 rounds 00 buckshot fired, .357 Magnum revolver (S&W, model unknown), 6 rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously injured by a .223 gunshot wound to the left forearm.
Gilbert Orrantia: S&W (model unknown) .357 Magnum revolver, 12 rounds .38 Special +P fired. Injured by shrapnel and debris produced by a .223 bullet near miss.
John Hanlon: S&W Model 36 .38 Special revolver, 2-inch barrel (5 rounds .38 Special +P fired). Seriously injured by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and groin.
Benjamin Grogan: S&W M459 9mm pistol, 9 rounds fired. Killed by a .223 gunshot wound to the chest.
Jerry Dove: S&W M459 9mm pistol, 20 rounds fired. Killed by two .223 gunshot wounds to the head.
Ronald Risner: S&W M459 9mm pistol, 13-14 rounds fired, S&W (model unknown) .38 Special revolver, 1 round .38 Special +P fired. Uninjured.

[edit] Suspects
William Matix: S&W M3000 12 gauge shotgun, 1 round #6 shot fired. Killed after being shot six times.
Michael Platt: Ruger Mini-14 .223 Remington carbine, at least 42 rounds fired, S&W M586 .357 Magnum revolver, 3 rounds fired, Dan Wesson .357 Magnum revolver, 3 rounds fired. Killed after being shot 12 times.

 

[7.62foryou]

Originally posted by 3rd Gen Neal:

7.62, that's an interesting view. So what is your background to make such a statement? Have you ever gone in harms way, other then verbally from you keyboard that is?

No doubt, what a sorry reply that was. Ok 7.62 lets see how well you do with a handgun while a couple crazy dudes are sprayin .223 and buckshot at you...my goodness

Your not the 1st person who didn't like my take on a given subject. Just stated the facts as I remebered them. As for doing well in a gunfight, the objective is to shoot back with accurate fire. If you think you may have trouble doing that, don't take a job where you may have too! This aint' about me.

 

[7.62foryou]

Originally posted by crofoot629:

Poor FBI guys fired almost 100 rounds and got less than 10 hits. Poor shots those FBI guys it would seem to me. They were out shot no doubt out gunned is debateable.

7.62, that's an interesting view. So what is your background to make such a statement? Have you ever gone in harms way, other then verbally from you keyboard that is?

BTW, it was almost 25 years ago, why do you think LE does it differently now?

Emory

Emory

Don't like what I have to say? Join the club. It was 25 years so why are you commneting on it? How would you like to be in a fire fight with guys who can't shoot straight on your side? I know I wouldn't.

 

[4864]

I belive Metro Dade Police did a very good training video about the Miami shoot out. Very well done and shows lots of photos of the post shoot out scene.
sigP220.45 here on the board has posted about the shoot out before and I hope he does again. There is also a very well written book about the event. I can't recall the name right now.

This event and the 1985 US Marshal shoot out with Gordon Kahl here in ND was a big eye opener to Federal Law Enforcement. FBI Agants as well as most Federal Agents have many firearms issued to them now and have to train a lot more then they use to.

 

[dmc8163]

I can't stand it. I have to reply. Are you kidding me? A 10% hit rate in a law enforcement shooting is outstanding. The normal percentage is 5% to a tops of 6%. LE Firearms Instructors routinely take 80% off the officer's paper target score to get an idea of what the officer will shoot in a firefight. E.g., an excellent paper target score of 95% translates to a real world 15%. Someone is watching way too much TV.

 

[jimmyj]

Hi:
Was the .38 Plus-P rounds used by the FBI Agents
158 gr. SWCL-HP?
Jimmy

 

[Jack Flash]

Massad Ayoob also wrote in detail about the incident.

About the lack of planning / preparedness immediately before the fight:
IIRC, the agents were in a car tailing these bank robbers who were known vicious killers. The plan was to keep them in sight until reinforcements could arrive or a trap could be sprung. Things went badly wrong for the good guys and they were forced into a shoot-out under very unfavorable conditions.

In hindsight, it's easy to say the whole thing should have been done better. The FBI agents had little information to go on, and were improvising on the fly to protect innocent people from two very violent killers.

Maybe they should have backed off and waited for more favorable circumstances, but they wanted to stop these two vicious thugs before they could kill anyone else.

 

[Jellybean]

It's been 25 years and my mind is a little fuzzy, but as I recall: The FBI agents knew quite a bit about the suspects well before the incident started, including the firearms they had in their posession. Most of the agents were merely field agents that had no training to even think about taking those two guys down. Yet, instead of calling on the Miami Police Dept. for assistance, who didn't even know the FBI was there, they pulled one of the biggest blunders in Law Enforcement history. Apparently they thought if you had a bunch of agents jumping out of their cars yelling "FBI" the bad guys automatically fall down in the prone position, just like they did on TV. It sounds like they didn't want to share the publicity with a "local" PD, which is normal, and felt they had enough people to scare the fight out of the suspects.

Then, to honor their fallen agents, the FBI blamed the whole thing on the ammunition used.

There was nothing new to be learned here. This wasn't the first firefight and it won't be the last, the problem is the "firearm experts" ignore what has been learned from history and listen to armchair experts, who have never been in the line of fire either.

 

[Bassamatic]

In hindsight, it's easy to say the whole thing should have been done better. The FBI agents had little information to go on, and were improvising on the fly to protect innocent people from two very violent killers.

Not true man. The FBI knew a great deal about Platt and Matix. They knew that they had killed before and knew that they used automatic rifles in the many bank robberies they pulled off.

They went out that morning with the intent of arresting these guys based on information they had on travel routes. They were looking for these guys, they did not just "happen" upon them.

 

[Jack Flash]

I remember reading about the incident back when it happened, but obviously can't say I remember all the details precisely after 20+ years. I'll re-read what I can find about it before I comment further.

If anyone has some particularly good links, post them!

 

[mohavesam]

Bad decisions all-around. But it is ALL 100% hindsight.

The cops knew the potential and did not wait for backup, even if it would involve waiting, with surveillance intact. That indicates ego dominance.

The bad guys knew they were being followed and fired first (from what I recall). That indicates the same. Good men and bad men died, but it was far from an accident.

.