FBI Request for Proposal for new 9mm pistols

[kbm6893]

Wow, a lot of bad info in an otherwise good thread.

As to the issue of the number of FBI gunfights and a supposed poor track record - I've been an agent for 24 years, and a firearms instructor for most of that time. The Bureau averages about 10 shooting incidents a year - admittedly not a lot for 14000 agents, that's still a couple of hundred in my time. I'm not aware of any that we "lost". We've had agents killed, but good guys are going to pay the price sometimes. All law enforcement agencies lose guys, but it doesn't mean they lose gunfights. I do know we've killed a hell of lot more of them than they have of us.

4/11/86 has been beaten to death on this and every other forum on the internet. I came in five years after it happened, and even then there were lots of lessons learned still being worked out and applied. To the general public (and especially the gun world) the whole thing was blamed on one 9mm Silvertip launched by Jerry Dove. Inside the Bureau there was massive soul searching and changes in tactics, training, and equipment. Its been almost 30 years, and we've arrested a lot of bad guys since then, without any similar occurrences. That would have played out a lot differently today - a SWAT or HRT roll most likely - due to the sacrifices made and lessons learned that dark day.

The "agents couldn't handle the mighty 10mm" thing has somehow gained internet credence. I've said it here before - no "full-power" 10mm ammo was ever issued to agents. The ammo gurus started with the 10mm cartridge and a ton of ballistic gel, then boosted the velocity of the 180 grain bullet until it did what they wanted. Then they stopped and said Hey, Federal - make us a few million of these.

The original idea was to have a semi-auto version of the .38/357 combo. Regular 10mm for everyday use, with the option to go to more powerful rounds should the need arise. The 1076 came and went and that angle was never developed. The .40 came about, and we adopted it.

Now the ammo gurus say the 9mm will do whatever the .40 will, and its cheaper. So for the next go 'round we'll get 9mms.

Guys who have .40s will keep .40s, unless they want to switch. New guys will get 9mms. As .40s retire or break, they'll be replaced by 9mms.

Doesn't matter to me, my Sig is grandfathered in, and I'll reach my Bureau expiration date before they drop it.

As an agent, I appreciate all the interest generated by our guns. But the Bureau doesn't issue guns or ammo to other agencies, so everyone is still free to buy whatever guns and ammunition they want to use.

We still have 10mms, by the way. They hold 30 rounds and shoot full auto.

I was hoping you'd jump into this thread. Glad to see a real agent chiming in. A bullet does what a bullrt does. Depending on where it hits, who it hits, and how much clothing it travels through, the results are gonna be different.

I have never denigrated the agents involved in that shootout in 1986. They faced off against more heavily armed and desperate perps. They did not back down and fought to the end. Yeah, some agents made some mistakes, but they were human and it doesn't take away from their bravery. In the end, the more heavily armed bad guys were DOA, and it was the FBI who put them down.

There's no magic bullet. A high quality 9MM is probably a better choice. More rounds and less snappy is always better. Never liked shooting the .40.

As for keeping your SIG, congrats on that. My retired FBI friend hung onto his 228 for as long as he could. They finally wrestled it away and made him get the Glock. He told me yesterday that 228 was his favorite gun ever and he wants another, but not the new M11A1 with the rail. He wants a real 228.

 

[Philadelphia Patriot]

sigp220.45, which 9mm pistols do they now issue or allowed to be carried?

 

[sigp220.45]

kbm - My Sig 220 is a POW, and somehow keeps getting grandfathered in. All of the Bu issued Sig are long gone. There's one other guy in DN HQC who still has a Sig - his is a POW 229.

Philly Patriot - some personally owned Sigs 9mms are still around and grandfathered in. Glock 26s and 19s can be purchased and carried. I've heard of agents being issued 9s under special circumstances - I knew a guy who had a Bu issued Glock 19 because he had hand surgery and was having a hard time qualifying with his issued 23.

 

[dmc8163]

Sigp220.45, bless you for setting the record straight. I was already drafting a response to the inaccurate nonsense when I reached yours. Saved me a lot of time. It seems the myths will never die. Thank you, D

 

[dmc8163]

I should address the issue of the restrictions on Agents carrying personally owned weapons. In the "olden" days Agents could carry a wide variety of POWs as long as they were on the Bureau approved POW list. Several different manufacturers were included. Then, as budget austerity became a priority, the FBI's Gun Vault convinced Bureau executives that it was too expensive to maintain parts inventories for so many different weapons. Further it required gunsmiths with varied backgrounds, training and expertise. To consolidate the Bureau first decided to call in and destroy all Bureau Colt firearms (including Thompsons) in the 80's. Colt's were eliminate from the POW list and Colt gunsmith's services were no longer required. The POW list was whittled down to nothing. Some weapons such as sigp220.45's 220 are grandfathered. Those are becoming rarer every day. The POW list today as I understand it is limited to Glocks. My position is that the Bureau's current POW policy is all about the dollars and liability and has nothing to do with the quality of firearms or the needs or desires of the agents.

BTW, approval to use .357 Mag. in your .357 Mag. Revolver, Bureau issue or POW, could be granted only by your field offices Special Agent in Charge. None of my SAC's would do so. Too much liability and if the Bureau wanted you to carry .357 Mag in your revolvers FBIHQ would have approved it. I'd like to know what SAC('s) supposedly routinely approved such carry? Don't get me wrong, many of us carried the .357 Silvertip it just wasn't approved. I carried it in my Model 19 for nine years.

 

[M2MikeGolf]

My solution: bring back the 547, maybe even in stainless.

 

[kbm6893]

I should address the issue of the restrictions on Agents carrying personally owned weapons. In the "olden" days Agents could carry a wide variety of POWs as long as they were on the Bureau approved POW list. Several different manufacturers were included. Then, as budget austerity became a priority, the FBI's Gun Vault convinced Bureau executives that it was too expensive to maintain parts inventories for so many different weapons. Further it required gunsmiths with varied backgrounds, training and expertise. To consolidate the Bureau first decided to call in and destroy all Bureau Colt firearms (including Thompsons) in the 80's. Colt's were eliminate from the POW list and Colt gunsmith's services were no longer required. The POW list was whittled down to nothing. Some weapons such as sigp220.45's 220 are grandfathered. Those are becoming rarer every day. The POW list today as I understand it is limited to Glocks. My position is that the Bureau's current POW policy is all about the dollars and liability and has nothing to do with the quality of firearms or the needs or desires of the agents.

BTW, approval to use .357 Mag. in your .357 Mag. Revolver, Bureau issue or POW, could be granted only by your field offices Special Agent in Charge. None of my SAC's would do so. Too much liability and if the Bureau wanted you to carry .357 Mag in your revolvers FBIHQ would have approved it. I'd like to know what SAC('s) supposedly routinely approved such carry? Don't get me wrong, many of us carried the .357 Silvertip it just wasn't approved. I carried it in my Model 19 for nine years.

I had an American Rifleman with a whole story about the guns of the FBI. Said agents could carry 357 if they wished. Might have been BS, I don't know.

But my friend was a NY State Trooper before becoming an agent, and he was used to 357, so that's what he carried as an agent. He worked in Virginia, Boston, and NY in his career. I never asked him if he carried 357 in all states. Just know he didn't trust the .38 when the 357 was around. He came into the bureau in 1983. By 1988 or so his revolvers were gone. He never personally carried a 1076 but tells me they were very problematic and agents hated them. He got the 228 and fell in love until they took it from him and gave him the Glock.

I don't know if he was officially approved for it, I just know he carried 357. He told me he used to carry 4 rounds of .38 followed by 2 rounds of .357 right before the change to semi autos. Said he liked having a few .357 rounds behind the .38 in case those didn't do the trick. He still has his Model 60 that he used to wear on his ankle. .38 Special, of course. He said the .38 J frame was OK for backup, but never considered it for primary duty carry. He dearly misses his issued Model 13. The one he trained with as a new agent. He has 2 Model 27 FBI commeratives the Bureau sold to agents. Consecutive serial numbers and all. Never even cracked open the cylinders. He's keeping them for his 2 kids. I also know he kept a couple of speed loaders loaded with the 357 Silvertips in his car.

 

[Rick H.]

Interesting thread. I started in law enforcement in 1978. The Miami shooting was one of several that rocked law enforcement to the core in that era. Not to throw rocks because almost every LEO shooting situation has mistakes made, but this single shooting event made many stand up and do some serious soul searching. If you haven't read a detailed, unbiased account of the Miami shooting you should. It was a situation that never should have gone down the way it did. Enough said as I am retired and don't want to rattle old cages.

The entire selection process that is being used by the FBI is pretty typical of what many large departments do. I have never liked setting certain ground rules that almost immediately begin excluding certain weapons. It gives the impression of being unfair to one or another firearm manufacturer while favoring others. Let them all submit examples and give them all a fair shake down, then no one can say they didn't get a fair trial.

What I see taking place in this selection process is trying to make a sidearm "stupid-proof" and one gun fits all. It's never gonna happen and if any department should understand that fact the FBI should. No one gun fits everyone regardless of interchangeable back straps or frame sizes. And funny as it may sound, I have never had to rack the slide on any semi-automatic I ever carried by pushing the rear sight against something. Actually, I don't believe I have ever heard of anyone doing that except in training because someone thought it was a good idea. Must be the same person(s) that thought it was a good idea to only teach new officers to only shoot with two hands, when in reality a great number of LEO's only use one hand when involved in a shooting situation. I fought a major battle with my old department trying to spend much more time shooting one handed which they finally woke up to one day. I haven't read any real stats lately, but something like 20% to 30% of the officers involved in shootings only use one hand.

Now to the 9mm round. If you have been around for any length of time you have to know that the 9mm round has gone through some serious development and re-development. Todays 9mm round is not your fathers 9mm round. Prior to my retirement we carried 3 different versions of 9mm R****s and then switched to Glock .40's when our R****s started experiencing cracked frames. R**** blamed the cracked frames on the ammo we were using which was a 115 grain +P+ load made by Winchester and later on we used a 127 grain +P+ also made by Winchester. Interestingly enough, R**** initially approved the loads we carried in their pistols. By the way, chrono results were dramatic with these loads and approached .357 velocities.

When we went to Glocks we also switched caliber to .40 S&W. Immediately we noticed a decline in shooting scores and many officers complained of the recoil. When we changed to Glocks we gave each officer the choice of a full size pistol or compact. Looking back on that decision it was a huge mistake as everyone in uniform should have been issued a full sized pistol which would have eliminated some of our problems and complaints. I also think it was a big mistake to force every officer to switch to the .40 S&W. They should have been given a choice based on their test firing of the two calibers as to which one they preferred. Many would have stayed with the 9mm and would have been much better off and happier. Again, no one size fits all. Two types of ammunition to keep in stock is no big deal and forget about giving ammunition to some one who runs out. The object is to have working pistols that officers can rely on and can hit their targets with.

So in the end a new FBI sidearm will be picked and yes there will be a few departments that will opt for the same firearm, but this doesn't happen as much as it once did. Departments are discovering they really can make their own choices based on their needs and not on what the FBI claims is best for them. I wish the FBI and the agents forced to carry these new sidearms well.

Rick H.

 

[DWalt]

FBI's stated rationale (greatly simplified) for the 9mm:

Higher magazine capacity.
Better accuracy, even during rapid fire, vs. the .40 S&W and .45 ACP.
Bullet placement and adequate penetration to reach vital areas trump everything else, regardless of cartridge.
Modern 9mm bullet designs will duplicate the terminal performance of bullets from the .40 S&W or .45 ACP in tissue.

 

[kbm6893]

FBI's stated rationale (greatly simplified) for the 9mm:

Higher magazine capacity.
Better accuracy, even during rapid fire, vs. the .40 S&W and .45 ACP.
Bullet placement and adequate penetration to reach vital areas trump everything else, regardless of cartridge.
Modern 9mm bullet designs will duplicate the terminal performance of bullets from the .40 S&W or .45 ACP in tissue.

Makes perfect sense to me. The 9MM of today is no Silvertip from 1986.

Regarding the 1986 shootout, that shootout became standard training video for probable every academy in the country. I remember watching it as a recruit. So many other "bad luck" things happened to the agents, that them coming out on top was even more testament to their bravery. One agent lost his gun before the fight began. Dove's gun was hit by a bullet so it was out of commission. I seem to remember Grogan losing his glasses, and he was a great shot, so his ability to put them where it counted was compromised.

But in spite of it all, the bad guys were DOA and the good guys won. Yeah, Grogan and Dove gave their lives, but sometimes cops die doing their job. It's a risk we all accept.

 

[sigp220.45]

I heard from a buddy on HRT that they are now carrying Glock 17s, and that 17s are being sent to SWAT teams in the field Divisions.

In the topsy-turvy world of the Bureau, I think this makes it less likely the general issue pistol will be a Glock. HRT and SWAT have always carried something different from hump agents in the field - Novak Hi-Powers then the double stack 1911s for HRT, and the Springfield 1911s for Division SWAT.

I don't have any inside dope on the selection process, and it won't affect me anyway, but I think the general issue gun will be the Sig 320 or the M&P.

 

[MOONDAWG]

With so many Polymer contenders meeting those specs I'd be hard pressed to decide who'll get the contract.

The lowest bidder, or the one with the most political clout.

 

[policerevolvercollector]

Wow, a lot of bad info in an otherwise good thread.

As to the issue of the number of FBI gunfights and a supposed poor track record - I've been an agent for 24 years, and a firearms instructor for most of that time. The Bureau averages about 10 shooting incidents a year - admittedly not a lot for 14000 agents, that's still a couple of hundred in my time. I'm not aware of any that we "lost". We've had agents killed, but good guys are going to pay the price sometimes. All law enforcement agencies lose guys, but it doesn't mean they lose gunfights. I do know we've killed a hell of lot more of them than they have of us.

4/11/86 has been beaten to death on this and every other forum on the internet. I came in five years after it happened, and even then there were lots of lessons learned still being worked out and applied. To the general public (and especially the gun world) the whole thing was blamed on one 9mm Silvertip launched by Jerry Dove. Inside the Bureau there was massive soul searching and changes in tactics, training, and equipment. Its been almost 30 years, and we've arrested a lot of bad guys since then, without any similar occurrences. That would have played out a lot differently today - a SWAT or HRT roll most likely - due to the sacrifices made and lessons learned that dark day.

The "agents couldn't handle the mighty 10mm" thing has somehow gained internet credence. I've said it here before - no "full-power" 10mm ammo was ever issued to agents. The ammo gurus started with the 10mm cartridge and a ton of ballistic gel, then boosted the velocity of the 180 grain bullet until it did what they wanted. Then they stopped and said Hey, Federal - make us a few million of these.

The original idea was to have a semi-auto version of the .38/357 combo. Regular 10mm for everyday use, with the option to go to more powerful rounds should the need arise. The 1076 came and went and that angle was never developed. The .40 came about, and we adopted it.

Now the ammo gurus say the 9mm will do whatever the .40 will, and its cheaper. So for the next go 'round we'll get 9mms.

Guys who have .40s will keep .40s, unless they want to switch. New guys will get 9mms. As .40s retire or break, they'll be replaced by 9mms.

Doesn't matter to me, my Sig is grandfathered in, and I'll reach my Bureau expiration date before they drop it.

As an agent, I appreciate all the interest generated by our guns. But the Bureau doesn't issue guns or ammo to other agencies, so everyone is still free to buy whatever guns and ammunition they want to use.

We still have 10mms, by the way. They hold 30 rounds and shoot full auto.

Tactics have changed a lot since I started in 1984. So......I'm not going to criticize the Bureau's caliber switch. The current 9mm offerings are not your dad's 9mm!

Shot placement is now and always will be the key factor. I like my issued Glock 30 .45. But,I've seen numerous one shot stops in my career with the lowly .22lr & seen people survive solid torso hits w/ full house .357s and even shotgun wounds.

As much as I like my .45, if I went to work tomorrow and my agency switched back to the .40 or to the 9mm, I'd be OK w/ that. I'd simply train until I was skilled enough with it to survive a gunfight.

A department in my area is trading in their Glock 21s (.45) and getting Glock 9mms. The officers were on the range recently trying the 17 & 19 while I was qualifying several days ago. Each officer will be allowed to choose between these models. Everyone is getting a Glock 43 as a backup. (BTW..I got to shoot two mags through a 43 ....nice! ) The Georgia State Patrol has already traded in the .45 GAP for the Glock 17/43 combo also. My brother-in-law is a federal agent and carries his issued Sig P228 all over the world. The 9mm is a proven & viable option.

Anyway, the wind will change directions in a few years and the calibers that begin w/ the number 4 will be the rage again in LEO circles. Don't panic,learn to embrace change.... It's always temporary.

 

[BigBill]

If I was working as an agent I'd carry a tweeked 1911 in 45acp. With a 8rd mag plus one in the pipe. But my first choice would be the m58.

 

[66snub]

I was at a multi-jurisdictional active shooter training the day before yesterday, and one of the other agencies was the Michigan State Police. I was talking to a troop, who told me that they have transitioned back to 9mm as well. My agency is also talking about going back to 9mm, and going away from Sig P226's and P229's, to Glock 19's and 17's. Traditionally, we have followed with whatever MSP has done, and I'm sure that this time will be no different.

 

[Bob O]

I trained with the MSP in my area during their transition to the G17/G26 last month. Next week I plan to switch to the same platform. Makes sense in the area where I work, rural and remote.

On a lot of calls, its a Trooper backing me up, or me backing them up. To have the same pistols and ammo will allow for us to share/provide resources should one of us need it.

 

[Art Doc]

1. I have no problem with the 9mm (properly loaded) for "social work." Two of my three primary SD handguns are 9s (the 3rd is a 380 so a 9mm Light).

2. I wonder if the 9 is wanted due to its lower recoil in consideration of the growing number of female agents?

3. I am curious about the design requirements. No hammer? Why? I see no real disadvantage to having one. What am I missing? No grip safety? Why? Same comment as previous. No manual safety? This could be bad. Find Masaad Ayoob's article about the number of cops who were saved from being shot with their own guns when criminals were unable to make the gun work because the safety was engaged. Who came up with these demands? It almost sounds like the design requirements are so narrow that it eliminates all contenders save one. Smacks of a fix being in for one manufacturer.

I have never understood a large agency demanding all personnel carry the exact same sidearm. Call my kooky but I would think it better to let each individual choose the weapon that suits/fits him best.

 

[Bob O]

One reason that makes me keep looking at the M&P and FNS is the manual safety. Currently carrying a 1911 for duty, as I prefer having a manual safety for duty use.

 

[sigp220.45]

I wouldn't over think this. It all comes down to the budget.

The Bureau training budget has been reduced every year for the past decade or so. To its credit, the Bureau has not cut back on qualifications, so every one of the 14000 agents still burns about 1000 rounds a year. Add in SWAT guys who shoot more, HRT who shoot waaay more, and new agents in training who burn about 10K rounds each before graduation, and that is a lot of ammo. The cost of replacing guns every decade is small potatoes compared to all that pretty factory ammo.

The same "budget uber alles" rule affects the selection of guns. DAO means less time in training. The requirement for adjustable grip sizes means more justification for doing away with the personally owned weapons program.

Wait, say you - isn't it cheaper to let guys buy their own guns? Nope. I carry a grandfathered-in Sig. Because the gun vault does all maintenance (even on POWs) they have to have a Sig trained armored and keep parts on hand, just for me and maybe 100 other guys with POW Sigs. The "here's your gun, hope you like it" approach sucks to guys like me, but most folks don't care. It's worked for the Army for quite a while.

The change also has nothing to do with female agents. We had female agents in my class in 1991 in about the same proportion as we do now. We do have a lot more military veterans, both male and female, than we ever had.

One more and I'll shut up. The FBI issued round on 4/11/86 was a +P .38 Special. SA Dove had a 9mm Smith because he was on SWAT. The FBI continued to allow the use of 9mms without a break. I was issued a Sig P226 in the academy in 1991, which I gave back when I got my 220. Some kind of 9mm has been allowed during my entire career. What changed was the ammo. It's been a 147 grain of various makes over the years. I know I was issued Hydra Shoks at first, now I think it's a Gold Dot. But we never "abandoned" the 9mm.

Remember the B in FBI stands for Bureau, as in bureaucracy. When dealing with bureaucracy always think budget first.

 

[Arik]

2. Probably because the 9 hollow point has come a long way in performance. The guns typically carry more ammo in their size. G17/22 17+1 vs 15+1. It's only 2 rounds with the Glock but it's not always the case. Although not issued anymore the 5906/4006 are 15 or 17+1 vs 11+1. Gives you more ammo on the street, and with 2 reloads that's 6 more rounds in the G17.

3A. Consistency. Each trigger pull is the same. Most gun fights are over in seconds and most of the time the first shot is off due to the trigger DA pull.
3B. There are probably just as many cops who got shot cause in all the excitement they forgot to disengage the safety. Forgetting the safety works both ways. Not all cops are gun enthusiasts and won't train daily to use the safety.
3C. No advantage to a grip safety. Once the gun is in your hand the safety is already off.


There needs to be uniformity. Not all cops are gun guys and there will be a %who will buy the cheapest because "a gun is a gun" also because mags are interchangeable and you can use your partner's mags. Same with the gun. If you had to use your partners gun you are familiar with it. Some departments like the NYPD and LAPD allow the officer to choose a gun but it's one of a few on a list of acceptable guns. They cannot just go and buy any gun they wish. Also these departments are large and chances of needing more ammo before a massive amount of backup arrives is slim to none. NYPD has something like 48 THOUSAND cops. So not only are the chances slim of running out of ammo before help arrives ....when it does someone will have ammo for you.