FBI stainless J frame

[skyraider]

A friend of mine was an FBI agent back in the 70's. Their issued service gun is 1974 was some kind of a J frame stainless snubbie that was chambered for .38 sp. He said he's willing to sell it to me.

What model would it be, and is it a desireable gun? He said it isn't stamped with FBI anyplace on the gun, but the serial # should show that it was an FBI issued gun.

Many Thanks,

Paul Moore

 

[johnsonl]

Well, a J frame stainless snubbie would be a Model 60. A Jinks letter will confirm if it was shipped to the FBI.

 

[Broadside]

...is it a desireable gun?

It certainly isn't undesireable. If it is in excellent condition or better and you can get it for $350 or less I would say go for it. Between $350 and $400 is probably a fair deal if it is in excellent-plus condition. After $400 it really isn't worth it unless the fact that it was an FBI gun means something to you.

 

[skyraider]

Broadside and johnsonl, thanks for the info. That also gives me an idea of what it's worth depending on what condition it's in.

Thanks,

Paul Moore

 

[Bearcat]

$400 for a really nice specimen is a decent price. Be careful, though. True FBI guns often were shot a lot...with full house loads as agents had to qualify frequently with them.

 

[skyraider]

resurrecting an old thread

Several months ago I posted with questions regarding a stainless J frame that might have been used by the FBI. Thanks to some forum members, I now know it is a snubnose Model 60.

This afternoon I had an appointment with my CPA who used to be an FBI agent (many years ago). He is the owner of the gun in question. He brought it for me to see since we were meeting. Man, is it a beautiful little gun, and in pristine condition! He never used it much, and it hasn't been fired at all in 15 or 20 years--just sits on his nightstand. It also comes with a nice looking little black leather holster that said federal-something-or-the-other on it (don't remember). I couldn't find a scratch on the gun anyplace. It's a snubnose Model 60 no dash, and needs to find a home in my gun safe.

The long and short of it is that he's not yet willing to part with it. I told him that it would be going to a great home, but still no go... yet. He promised me that if he does ever sell it, he will sell it to me. Someday--hopefully--it will come home with me and I'll get a Jinks letter to verify when and to where it left the Smith and Wesson factory.

Anyway, just an update on a "hunt" I've been on for several months now.

Paul Moore

 

[Texas Star]

He may have carried the gun as an agent, but I'd think it was a private purchase. Many agents did buy them. They could carry several S&W models, as long as they were blue or stainless and all steel.

Normally, "issue" guns were medium-frame items with four-inch barrels, usually the Model 10 then. It was superceded about 1980 by the three-inch barrelled M-13. Just before, a special M-10 with 2.5-inch bbl. was issued for a time. These were made for the Bureau and were not commercially available.

There are several special agents among the members here.
If you ask in The Lounge about the general subject of FBI guns, one will probably tell you what you need to know. Don't head the topic as being about this gun, or a moderator may move the topic here, where fewer will see it. I do think the subject would be of general interest.

BTW, until the Clinton administration, agents who were retiring could purchase the gun issued to them. So, many lettering to the Bureau became legitimate property of the men who carried them.

 

[skyraider]

Thanks, Texas Star. I will do that.

Paul

 

[Dborn]

FBI Model 60

The FBI did, indeed, order a batch of J-frame Model 60's from S&W back in the early '70s. S&W made more than the FBI ordered, in .38 Spl. with a 3" heavy barrel, and sent the overrun guns to gun shops. I saw one when I was buying gas at a station that was also a gun shop, and bought it. I shot it, carried it as a "snake gun" on fly fishing forays, and even slipped on a rock and fell into the creek with it, requiring full dissasembly and cleaning when I got home. Then one day I saw one just like it at a gun show with a sign calling it "Rare FBI Gun", with an unreal price on it. Recently I looked it up in the BLUE BOOK OF GUN VALUES--It isn't even listed! Nevertheless, I have one!

 

[Texas Star]

The FBI did, indeed, order a batch of J-frame Model 60's from S&W back in the early '70s. S&W made more than the FBI ordered, in .38 Spl. with a 3" heavy barrel, and sent the overrun guns to gun shops. I saw one when I was buying gas at a station that was also a gun shop, and bought it. I shot it, carried it as a "snake gun" on fly fishing forays, and even slipped on a rock and fell into the creek with it, requiring full dissasembly and cleaning when I got home. Then one day I saw one just like it at a gun show with a sign calling it "Rare FBI Gun", with an unreal price on it. Recently I looked it up in the BLUE BOOK OF GUN VALUES--It isn't even listed! Nevertheless, I have one!

With all due respect, how did you confirm that the Bureau ordered those guns? There have been at least two runs of guns like that, but neither was attributed to the FBI. NYPD did sell them (in blue) to policewomen, maybe also in stainless.

I've owned two in stainless, and liked them. They are indeed handy little guns for the angler, and offer considerably better velocity and balance over a snub. They also have a longer extractor rod length, making clearing empty cases easier.

Are they marked in some way to indicate FBI purchase? Do you know the serial number range of those bought by the Bureau?

If the sign at a gun show was all that makes you think these were FBI guns, I suggest that we need stronger verification. Dealers at shows often fabricate stories to let them try to charge high prices. To be sure, that particular gun may have been carried by an agent, but I think it was probably bought with his own money.

Hang onto yours. They're not easy to locate, and it is a wonderful little gun for the use you found for it. As you discovered, the stainless construction is good for a fisherman to have!

 

[Dborn]

Just going by what the guy at the gun shop told me about it being an FBI order overrun by S&W, and various things i heard over the years. being as it's been used and shot, it's value as a collectible is long gone. I did carry it recently when I broke my left wrist, and for a while I couldn't jack the slide on my usual carry guns. Still have the Model 17 .22 revolver I bought in 1966 for $89.00.

 

[dacoontz]

The absolute only way to know if any of these j frame model 60's were specifically ordered by the FBI would be to get a factory letter.

Having said that, this is the first time I have ever heard of the FBI issuing model 60's to their agents so I simply can't believe it until I see a factory letter that confirms it.

It would be cool if it turne dout to be true though. Maybe one of you guys can spend the $50 to find out for sure. Even the OP could send for a factory letter on his CPS's gun. You don't have to be the owner to do so but you do need to have the complete serial number and description on the request.

 

[dnater]

I'm pretty sure the bureau had some j frames to issue when an agent needed a smaller gun, but I never saw one in the field. Did see the DeSantis holsters for them though. The M60 I carried as a backup/off duty was my personal gun.

 

[Texas Star]

Didn't some female agents sue to be allowed to carry/qualify with J-fames, as their hands were too small to be comfortable using K-frames?

I recall a particular gun writer mentioning that, although I don't know how the case turned out. If the female agents won, the Bureau may have had to buy issue guns for them.

Or, they may have just bought some for personnel needing a lower profile gun than normally furnished, depending on an assignment.

 

[Dborn]

Didn't some female agents sue to be allowed to carry/qualify with J-fames, as their hands were too small to be comfortable using K-frames?

I recall a particular gun writer mentioning that, although I don't know how the case turned out. If the female agents won, the Bureau may have had to buy issue guns for them.

Or, they may have just bought some for personnel needing a lower profile gun than normally furnished, depending on an assignment.

The way I read it, when the FBI was going to switch to a more modern hi-cap gun after the Florida incident, they were considering going to the 10mm cartridge. But in testing they found that some female agents couldn't control the gun, so they opted for the .40 S&W cartridge instead, the .40 just being a milder version of the 10mm. That being the main reason the 40 S&W cartridge became popular with law enfocement, and the 10mm died almost completely away.

Maybe somebody else has more info than this, but that is what I read years back.

 

[BUFF]

There was a lawsuit filed in federal court by some small-statured female FBI agents when the FBI was issuing K frame Model 10's and 13's. The agents claimed that their hands were too small to operate the mandatory issue guns, and the agency, by refusing to allow a reasonable alternative or accomodation, was engaging in discrimatory practices. Either the women agents won or a settlement was agreed to, and the agents were allowed to use different revolvers that still fired the .38 Special cartridge. Whether these were D frame Colts or J frame Smiths, and whether they were bought by the agency or by the agents, I don't remember.

 

[mg357]

Please post some pictures of the gun in guestion if and when you have time.

 

[Texas Star]

For those whom it may interest, I read a book by a former Special Agent who's no longer with the Bureau. Maybe retired. She writes now for womens' magazines about how to avoid rape, etc. I think she's done some material on men who killed their girlfriends, stuff like that. I'd probably know her name if I see it. Don't confuse her with the former Manhattan DA who writes similar material.

Anyway, she complained that she had an awful time in the Academy and thereafter using 12 gauge shotguns with buckshot. The recoil is not mild, and the instructors seemed to take a special delight in making her fire the guns repeatedly. She seemed to think it was because they hated the idea of female agents.

She impresses me as being anti-gun, BTW.

 

[ispcapt]

The way I read it, when the FBI was going to switch to a more modern hi-cap gun after the Florida incident, they were considering going to the 10mm cartridge. But in testing they found that some female agents couldn't control the gun, so they opted for the .40 S&W cartridge instead, the .40 just being a milder version of the 10mm. That being the main reason the 40 S&W cartridge became popular with law enfocement, and the 10mm died almost completely away.

Maybe somebody else has more info than this, but that is what I read years back.

This is an internet rumor than keeps getting repeated and believed. However, if you do a search of this forum you'll find the truth which is nothing like the rumor. The prior thread from a couple of years ago went into good detail about the adoption of the 10mm Lite including the RFP for the gun. The 10mm full power load was never intended to be issued. The FBI set their performance standards and then tested various loading to meet those standards. If you do the research you'll find the 10mm Lite load was selected because it met the performance standards and the full power load did nothing more than what the Lite load did for their performance standards. Research will also show you that the 10mm Lite load was selected a full 1 year before the FBI ever let bids for a 10mm gun. Since the bids came after the 10mm Lite was selected then it's obvious that no 10mm guns were issued prior to the 10mm Lite being selected.
That rumor has been repeated for years. Why I can only guess. Usually you find someone who shoots a 10mm repeating it because it makes them feel like the Big Man. You find that alot among those who want to think they can shoot better and bigger guns than someone else. It's nothing more than an ego thing for them. They don't know beans from applebutter about it but they think if they can shoot a 10mm full power and someone else isn't carrying it then they're somehow better, badder, and tougher. Usually they're just wimps and can be seen thru pretty quickly.
As far as the FBI Model 60 being issued. The only J frame I every saw in the field office vault was the blued 49. Just because a particular model is issued doesn't mean it ever left the BU. Just like the cars, just because the govt issued it doesn't mean it's yours to keep forever.
Most of these FBI guns that people claim as having belonged to former SAs are personal purchase guns. There was a list of firearms that SAs could purchase and carry instead of the 4" pencil barrel Mod 10 or subsequent variations. Saw a lot of 2.5" Mod 19s, Mod 36 and 49, Some Colt Dick Specials, some 4" Mod 19s, and the occasional (altho not carried all the time after fighting the constant battle of pulling up your pants) 3.5" Mod 27.
If you've got a former SA with a Model 60 then it was 99.9% sure it was his personal purchase gun which he may or may not have even carried. Just because he bought it doesn't mean he ever carried it, no more so than any other LEO who has a bunch of guns personal purchase. For example, my blued 49 was never an issued gun by the FBI, even tho field offices had the 49 in the vault, or any other agency but it was a personal purchase by an SA. Does that make it an FBI gun? Nope, it's a gun that was bought by an SA.

 

[elseis66]

I have never been able to understand why the FBI felt the need to adopt a new platform after the Miami shootout. If the the agents involved had of been carrying full power .357 loads instead of .38 +P and 9mm than the first hits they achieved on the suspects would have been much more effective. There were two critical Hots that were delivered, one early on the driver through the windshield when he was still seated in the left side of the vehicle with a .38 +P and the other with a 9mm on the passenger after he had exited the right side of the vehicle. If Miami Dade patrol officers had of been in involved in engagement it would have ended theoretically much sooner as they all carried the .357 125 gr silvertips at the time. That is a mute point though because if local LE would have performed the feloney stop in a manor that would have peventet the fight.