FBI, wartime question

[digi-shots]

I was recently reading a thread about the last Registered Magnums and have a couple of questions on wartime purchases from the factory..

Did individual FBI recruits purchase their own weapons during the early 1940's (before Dec. 7, 1941) or only actual agents? Or did the Bureau supply them?

Did the FBI get preferential treatment over police departments?

How did S&W determine who was going to get the last "batch" of Registered and non Registered Magnums.

Thanks!

 

[rct269]

I don't know the real answers-------only what makes sense---some sense at least.

Registered Magnums were made to order----on order. Yes? If so, there was no last batch. I have owned 5, maybe 6 Registered Magnums over the years. I'm pretty sure there were only 2 of them that were shipped to distributors, and that was pure happenstance: The end purchaser in both cases was an individual who didn't know any better, and ordered their gun from a local dealer who ordered it from a distributor; and contrary to what I believe (That S&W wanted every single RM to be ordered direct by an individual, so they could keep every single penny of the purchase price. ($60) S&W accepted the order, but they didn't make the deal the least bit attractive for either the dealer or the distributor. The case on point was a first year gun with a distributor price of $47 and change--leaving $12 and change for income to be split by the distributor AND the dealer----hell of a deal! (I don't remember the second deal----if I even knew it to begin with.)

That first deal got me to thinking. What I thought was you don't treat your distribution network like that unless you're desperate-----truly desperate for cash. Then I read about how the sale of an insignificant number of RM's amounted to an outsized percentage of total sales for several periods of time. The last thing I learned pretty much cinched my theory of the RM, that it was a marketing plan conceived because of a desperate need for cash. That was that it cost $17 to make an an RM---maybe a dollar more than any other high end N frame of the time. I already thought the typical distributor price for pretty much anything was something a bit less than double the production cost. The bottom line of all this is any and all of the Wessons who owed their living to the continuation of S&W as a going concern owed Doug Wesson a huge debt of gratitude, because the entirety of the RM saga was his baby----and it worked!!

My thoughts on the RM are going to take a lot less time and room: The NRM was a natural progression of what had proven to be a good seller, and S&W determined who was going to get the last batch by looking at the orders on hand.

Ralph Tremaine

I just remembered something that might help explain why the dealer and the distributor involved with that first year RM didn't cross S&W off their Christmas card list. The end purchaser had ordered 3 guns---all the same. There was nothing in the provenance to explain the who's, whys and wherefores---------maybe a daddy and two sons------maybe a business man and two customers---who knows. The bottom line is the distributor and the dealer had three times that $12 and change to split between them.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

Linda
I have lettered several Registered Magnums that when to FBI agents that ordered them themselves. I've also lettered one or two that were ordered by a location for an agent. I have yet to see any ordered during WWII. I hope I've helped answer a part of your question.
Don

 

[Toyman]

I think both. In the S&W database there are quite a few listed to FBI. I had a 3 inch lettered to FBI agent at court house in Brooklyn. I have seen other letters stating the order was placed by Frank Baughman for agents.

 

[quinn]

I have RM #4950 that was ordered by Frank Baughman (Hoover's gun guy and inventor of the Baughman quick draw front sight) and paid fn by Baughman's personal check. It was spec'd for and delivered to a new FBI academy granduatin in Aug. 1939. Two guns were in the same order and both for named FBI agents. Both guns were 4" and equipped with the ramp front sights. We can only assume that the agents repaid Baughman.

 

[rct269]

I have RM #4950 that was ordered by Frank Baughman (Hoover's gun guy and inventor of the Baughman quick draw front sight) and paid fn by Baughman's personal check. It was spec'd for and delivered to a new FBI academy granduatin in Aug. 1939. Two guns were in the same order and both for named FBI agents. Both guns were 4" and equipped with the ramp front sights. We can only assume that the agents repaid Baughman.

Students of history (and gun sight junkies like me) will tell you the design of what was to become the Baughman Quick Draw Front Sight was received by S&W on an RM order dated December 30, 1935 from Mr. I. E. Nitschke, a Chicago resident, for what was to become RM #753. It's perhaps noteworthy to add Mr. Nitschke's design looks a whole lot more like a Baughman Quick Draw Front Sight than did Mr. Baughman's

Mr. Baughman's RM order for what was to become RM #1345 was dated August 4, 1936, and also contained a drawing for such a sight.

So how come Special Agent Baughman gets the credit for the design?

I held a seance for S&W's Marketing V.P. at the time---Doug Wesson also attended, and I asked that very question. The response also took the form of a question: "Well, if you were in the business of selling gun fighting weapons, who would you want to curry favor with---the FBI, or some schmuck from Chicago nobody ever heard of----besides his wife and kids? Besides, it's not like we asked either one of them to submit sight designs."

Ralph Tremaine

 

[S&W ucla]

How did S&W determine who was going to get the last "batch" of Registered and non Registered Magnums.

Thanks!

I think it was whoever paid the money first. I have one of 25 NRM that went to Wichita PD on Dec 10, 1940 as one of the latest LE orders. Have seen a number of RMs that shipped to individual agents, starting with Hoover's #1
Tim Mullins book shows 3 NRMs delivered after WW2 began.

Wichita PD Non-Reg Mags

 

[29-1]

Students of history (and gun sight junkies like me) will tell you the design of what was to become the Baughman Quick Draw Front Sight was received by S&W on an RM order dated December 30, 1935 from Mr. I. E. Nitschke, a Chicago resident, for what was to become RM #753. It's perhaps noteworthy to add Mr. Nitschke's design looks a whole lot more like a Baughman Quick Draw Front Sight than did Mr. Baughman's

Mr. Baughman's RM order for what was to become RM #1345 was dated August 4, 1936, and also contained a drawing for such a sight.

So how come Special Agent Baughman gets the credit for the design?

I held a seance for S&W's Marketing V.P. at the time---Doug Wesson also attended, and I asked that very question. The response also took the form of a question: "Well, if you were in the business of selling gun fighting weapons, who would you want to curry favor with---the FBI, or some schmuck from Chicago nobody ever heard of----besides his wife and kids? Besides, it's not like we asked either one of them to submit sight designs."

Ralph Tremaine

Ralph, back about 15 years ago, my FBI wife Eliza, LadyFed on the forum, posted a thread about a 4 inch FBI NR Magnum 61114 that was ordered by Bill Nitschke at the FTU at Quantico in 1940 for SA Albert Bise who at the time was Hoover's Special Assistant. I'll have to look back in our files and see if I can come up with the drawing Nitschke made of his ramp front sight design. He and Baughman were at Quantico at the same time. Probably a lot more to the story on the 'Baughman" front sight than we've fleshed out. Here's a link to a short bio on Nitschke. Regards
Chuck
1937 Brady Gang Shootout - The Agents Involved

 

[rct269]

Nitschke's drawing (or perhaps one of his drawings) can be found in Jinks' treatise on the RM (The Revolver That Changed The Direction of Handgunning) SWCA Journal (Volume 24, #'s 3 & 4) and/or in Book 4 of the compilation, Pages 972-993----as can Baughman's.

Ralph Tremaine

And just as a matter of idle curiosity, how do we get "Bill" from whatever I. and E. stand for?

 

[29-1]

Nitschke's drawing can be found in Jinks treatise on the RM (The Revolver That Changed The Direction of Handgunning) SWCA Journal (Volume 24, #'s 3 & 4) and/or in Book 4 of the compilation, Pages 972-993----as can Baughman's.

Ralph Tremaine

And just as a matter of idle curiosity, how do we get "Bill" from whatever I. and E. stand for?

No clue. The bio in the link I sent you is from the Retired FBI agents association. It's the only place I've seen the name bill. I also have somewhere a single sheet of paper that has the original drawing which is not in the 2 references you mentioned.

 

[rct269]

No clue. The bio in the link I sent you is from the Retired FBI agents association. It's the only place I've seen the name bill. I also have somewhere a single sheet of paper that has the original drawing which is not in the 2 references you mentioned.

I'm confused---as usual.

You say you have the original drawing---on a single sheet of paper---and it's not in the two references I identified. I was about to say the drawings from both men were on their respective orders-----and they are, but they are most assuredly not on the order forms originally completed by those individuals---rather on what has to be a S&W form completed in house from the data contained in the customer's original order. It stands to reason then that the respective drawings I attributed to the two men are, in fact, drawings done by S&W personnel---one a rather talented artist who actually knew what the front end of a revolver looks like, and the other a child-like rendition which would be comical if it wasn't so sad.

And now I am a good deal less confused------and admittedly apologetic for not paying closer attention to what was right in front of my face all this time.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[lestert357]

The last of the Kansas City PD multiple gun Pre-War Magnum orders was shipped on 7/3/1940. It contained 26 NRM's (23 - 4", 2 - 3.5", 1 - 6.5", all blue). One of the 3.5" NRM's, serial number 61633, was for the Chief and was engraved "L. B. Reed" on the side plate. The location of that NRM is currently unknown to me. However, the other 3.5" NRM in that shipment, serial number 61632 pictured below, has been sold at auction a couple of times over the last several years.

Photo Credit - Rock Island Auction

 

[digi-shots]

Here's a quick pic from a copy of the "Journal, Vol. 24…". Showing the drawings of the front sight for those not familiar with it.