Fed. .38spc 110g +P+- LEO only
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Big Cholla
Member
It is a fairly efficient self defense round. If you want some entertaining reading about comparative terminal ballistics, go to this link and read about a testing lab's efforts in determining the then 'best' round for one shot stops on human sized animals. Goats were used in the "Strasbourg Tests" in the early '90s. The cartridge you mention wasn't available then, but close approximations were. The actual test is linked on the right side of the referenced web page. ......... http://www.thegunzone.com/strasbourg.html
.......... Big Cholla
.......... Big Cholla
BUFF
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
That load was available in the early 1980's. A neighbor who worked with Immigration & Naturalization then was issued it as their duty round.
There is no SAAMI industry standard for .38 Special +P+. Much of it is loaded to specifications contracted to with the purchasing agency, such as "a 110 grain j.h.p. bullet loaded to a velocity of X,X00 fps fired from a 2/4/6 inch revolver or vented pressure barrel" (oversimplified, of course), with the manufacturer using whatever propellant they thought best.
Since there is no industry standard, one will encounter batches of the same bullet weights that are loaded to differing velocities.
Said neighbor used to give me a lot of his practice ammo, both the 110 gr. +P+ and 148 gr. wadcutter midrange, which his supervisor gave out monthly for the agents to shoot up on their own for practice. (He was a pretty good shot but didn't like cleaning his gun!) They got more loaded ammo when they brought back the fired brass.
I used to keep him well supplied with fired brass! Nobody had ever given me free ammo 200 rounds at a time!
I believe that the neighbor said that his agency's ammo was purchased on a U.S. Treasury Dept. contract. It was Federal brand (the wadcutter was Winchester-Western) and it was pretty warm stuff. It was a lot hotter than my 110 grain j.h.p. handload of 7.0 grains of Unique, which I now know to be in the +P range. I would only shoot the +P+ stuff in my .357 Mag sixguns.
There is no SAAMI industry standard for .38 Special +P+. Much of it is loaded to specifications contracted to with the purchasing agency, such as "a 110 grain j.h.p. bullet loaded to a velocity of X,X00 fps fired from a 2/4/6 inch revolver or vented pressure barrel" (oversimplified, of course), with the manufacturer using whatever propellant they thought best.
Since there is no industry standard, one will encounter batches of the same bullet weights that are loaded to differing velocities.
Said neighbor used to give me a lot of his practice ammo, both the 110 gr. +P+ and 148 gr. wadcutter midrange, which his supervisor gave out monthly for the agents to shoot up on their own for practice. (He was a pretty good shot but didn't like cleaning his gun!) They got more loaded ammo when they brought back the fired brass.
I used to keep him well supplied with fired brass! Nobody had ever given me free ammo 200 rounds at a time!
I believe that the neighbor said that his agency's ammo was purchased on a U.S. Treasury Dept. contract. It was Federal brand (the wadcutter was Winchester-Western) and it was pretty warm stuff. It was a lot hotter than my 110 grain j.h.p. handload of 7.0 grains of Unique, which I now know to be in the +P range. I would only shoot the +P+ stuff in my .357 Mag sixguns.
flop-shank
US Veteran
If you search this forum, fellow member Armsmaster270 used a Federal 110 gr. +P+ JHP from a 4" gun to stop a knife attack when he was a LEO. It worked well. Of course, his shot placement was stellar.
IIRC, the Corbon 110 gr. +P JHP load behaves and pushes velocities similar to the old treasury load.
IIRC, the Corbon 110 gr. +P JHP load behaves and pushes velocities similar to the old treasury load.
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captainjohnsofd
Member
Issue weapons of that era were Models 19, 66, in 2.5" and 4" barrel lengths. The treasury load was actually a low-end .357 loading since it was not politically correct to shoot criminals with a .357 Magnum. The gunsmith I worked for saw a few weapons with accelerated wear but no failures. Happy shooting!
I have chroned some of the +P+ loads
out of s&w 66 .357 6 inch barrel ave 10 shots
win +p+ 110 jhp = 1157 fps
fed +p+ 110 jhp = 1210 fps
fed +P+ 147 hydra shok 953 fps
out of s&w 637 38 special 2 inch barrel
win +P+ 110 jhp = 1003 fps
fed +P+ 110 jhp = 994 fps
fed +P+ 147 hydra shok 841 fps
hope this helps some
Jason
out of s&w 66 .357 6 inch barrel ave 10 shots
win +p+ 110 jhp = 1157 fps
fed +p+ 110 jhp = 1210 fps
fed +P+ 147 hydra shok 953 fps
out of s&w 637 38 special 2 inch barrel
win +P+ 110 jhp = 1003 fps
fed +P+ 110 jhp = 994 fps
fed +P+ 147 hydra shok 841 fps
hope this helps some
Jason
In the late 70s the Agency I worked for was issued the "Treasury Round", a 110grn +P+ .38spl to carry in our Model 66 four inch and two and a half inch guns.
In several shooting it was found to be bad Juju as it opened up too soon and didn't get good penitration, 10 to 14 inches is what is needed for an round to be effective.
One incident was a big big Sumo kinda dude in Huney LuLu who was shot eight times in the torso and survived because of lack of penitration of the round.
Me, I like at least 125 grain to 158 grain rounds.
The Speer 135grn +P Gold Dot for short barrels is a good round
Just my opinion.
Rule 303
In several shooting it was found to be bad Juju as it opened up too soon and didn't get good penitration, 10 to 14 inches is what is needed for an round to be effective.
One incident was a big big Sumo kinda dude in Huney LuLu who was shot eight times in the torso and survived because of lack of penitration of the round.
Me, I like at least 125 grain to 158 grain rounds.
The Speer 135grn +P Gold Dot for short barrels is a good round
Just my opinion.
Rule 303
bmcgilvray
Member
I can't say about the Federal version as I've not seen any.
Back in the late 19700s I obtained a few boxes of the Winchester produced "Treasury" +P+ load. It clocked 1100 fps from a 4-inch Model 10 according to my notes.
Back in the late 19700s I obtained a few boxes of the Winchester produced "Treasury" +P+ load. It clocked 1100 fps from a 4-inch Model 10 according to my notes.
CTG_COLLECTOR
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Per USBP Agent John Jacobs, who was one of three Agents involved in ammo testing in 1984 to replace the issued Winchester 110JHP+P+, reported that the 38Spl 110 +P+ was a very erratic performer in actual shootings. That's why USBP replaced the 110JHP+P+ and issued the .357Mag 110JHP and shortly thereafter the 9mm 115JHP+P+.
I have no data to back me up, but I believe the Treasury Load came out of a combination of loving the "high-velocity/energy theory" of stopping power, along with a desire to have high performance with lower recoil.
It is an interesting round from a historical standpoint. The Illinois State Police was the first state-level police agency to convert to semi-auto pistols back in the late 60s or so, and they issued a similar round in 9mm (115gr JHP +P+), which was also very ineffective.
I've never understood the "high-energy" theory of stopping power. If the round doesn't have enough energy to knock the shooter over, it won't have enough to knock over a bad guy. Yet, that seems to be what people expect... I've got a picture somewhere of a guy on PCP who was shot by 2 Ill. State Troopers approximately 35 times with the above-mentioned 9mm load, and he wasn't stopped until the second 12ga slug severed his spine. That said, none of the 9mms hit the central nervous system, but they were all torso shots... Poor penetration, mediocre shot placement, and meaningless "energy transfer" made that situation very ugly for awhile...
I would bet the Treasury load would be equally problematic. Coolness and the luxury of some time under pressure to provide excellent shot placement, and a 22 will work, so the Treasury Load is NOT worthless, but IMO you could do better out of a 38 with the FBI load (158gr LSWC-HP).
It is an interesting round from a historical standpoint. The Illinois State Police was the first state-level police agency to convert to semi-auto pistols back in the late 60s or so, and they issued a similar round in 9mm (115gr JHP +P+), which was also very ineffective.
I've never understood the "high-energy" theory of stopping power. If the round doesn't have enough energy to knock the shooter over, it won't have enough to knock over a bad guy. Yet, that seems to be what people expect... I've got a picture somewhere of a guy on PCP who was shot by 2 Ill. State Troopers approximately 35 times with the above-mentioned 9mm load, and he wasn't stopped until the second 12ga slug severed his spine. That said, none of the 9mms hit the central nervous system, but they were all torso shots... Poor penetration, mediocre shot placement, and meaningless "energy transfer" made that situation very ugly for awhile...
I would bet the Treasury load would be equally problematic. Coolness and the luxury of some time under pressure to provide excellent shot placement, and a 22 will work, so the Treasury Load is NOT worthless, but IMO you could do better out of a 38 with the FBI load (158gr LSWC-HP).
CTG_COLLECTOR
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You need to re-check your facts.
Both Federal and Winchester designed the 9mm 115JHP+P+ specifically for ISP and both loads were extremely effective in actual shootings. DeKaleb County, GA, still uses the Federal load (9BPLE) with continued success.
USBP's 357Mag 110JHP was also effective in actual shootings, and one of the major reasons that the USBP went to the 9BPLE is because it performed the closest to their issued 357Mag load in actual shootings.
The picture of the shooting you are referring to appeared in the Caliber Press Street Survival book. The issued ISP load in use at the time was NOT the 115JHP+P+, but rather the Winchester 100gr "Power Point" round nosed jacketed softpoint. The 100JSP bullets acted just like FMJ bullets with many of them overpenetrating and exiting. So the 100JSP had plenty of penetration.
flop-shank
US Veteran
You need to have a talk with the 125 gr. .357....
......and tell the cat that he ain't supposed to work. It seems that that cartridge has a much better street reputation than any heavy bullet .38 spl. cartridge. Obviously there isn't more metal at play, so what would be the cause of that increase in effectiveness?
Bullets going at high velocities, when properly designed can throw off serious secondary missles that create wound tracks of their own, increasing the likelyhood of hitting something important. They also are easier to make perform reliably through heavy clothing because they are pushed further past their expansion threshold. Good design will take care of penetration issues as well.
......and tell the cat that he ain't supposed to work. It seems that that cartridge has a much better street reputation than any heavy bullet .38 spl. cartridge. Obviously there isn't more metal at play, so what would be the cause of that increase in effectiveness?
It doesn't knock them over. It stuns the nervous system in some people with some shots. No, energy isn't 100% certain because every shot is different, as is every shootee. That's the same reason relying on a large crush cavity isn't 100% either.
Bullets going at high velocities, when properly designed can throw off serious secondary missles that create wound tracks of their own, increasing the likelyhood of hitting something important. They also are easier to make perform reliably through heavy clothing because they are pushed further past their expansion threshold. Good design will take care of penetration issues as well.
That's right! Thanks for double-checking and correcting that. I saw the pic during an LE class here in IL about 20 years ago. Now that you mention the 100gr loads, that rang a bell. Still, my impression was right that light bullets and high velocity does not equal effectiveness...
I slightly disagree with you that the 115gr +P+ load was "extremely" effective though. The ISP switched to 40 S&W about 10 years ago after several more failures of the light bullet - high speed concept with the 115gr load.
mgjohn
Member
Years back some friendly Feds used to keep the local gunshop well supplied. They had the WW 38 +P+ loading. I have ran a bunch of it thru a model 60 and a model 37. They were carring 21/2 inch model 66's at the time. Nice shooting load but warm (ie bit of recoil) for the snubs I had.
photoman
Member
The Federal 9BPLE round is a well proven round. I don't put much stock in theories...light and fast or heavy and slow.
Now that I think about it, I don't put much stock in handguns at all! Be prepared to rip their eyeballs out in the event that your handgun doesn't get the job done.
Now that I think about it, I don't put much stock in handguns at all! Be prepared to rip their eyeballs out in the event that your handgun doesn't get the job done.
stiab
US Veteran
I know this is an old thread, but I'll go on record (again) as saying that the early Treasury loads were not so hot, and I don't think the "+P+" designation was even in use at the time. Below is a box that I was issued in the 1970's, when standard sidearms were Colt and S&W .38 Special revolvers. I chronographed this ammo years later, and it averaged only 1077 fps from a 4" Model 15. At the same range session 110 grain Super Vel .38 Special averaged 1221 fps. I think all the talk about hot Treasury loads is just urban legend that gets read and repeated countless times on the internet. That's just my opinion, but it is based on being an actual user of the ammo, and real chrono tests.
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This seems to match my limited measurement. With the Federal 110gr +P+ (38FTD), my 2.5" Model 66 gave 1027fps a few feet from the muzzle, with SD of 24, 10-shot sample. My 4" 520 gave 1084fps, SD of 19, 10-shot sample. 110gr .357 ammo from Federal (357D) gave well over 100fps more velocity than the +P+, in each revolver.
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