Feedback on alloy frames.

[gboling]

Does anyone know of a documented failure rate or documented reliability record of the third generation alloy frames? Or can you share personal experiences with these?

I desperately want a 4566. I found a NIB 4563 but I am agonizing over the alloy frame. My only experience with alloy frame failures was 21 years ago when I first took my 5906 to the range and witnessed a frame rail crack on a new compact 3rd generation S&W. That gun was immediately replaced by S&W but I have been leery of them ever since and now that they are out of production replacement is not possible.

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[ronnie gore]

alloy frame

i carried a lightweight colt commander for over 30 years on the job with regular qualifications,unknown round count but a bunch i know never had a problem. also the sigs and berettas have alloy frames and i have never heard of any problems.
the truth is most people carry the light weight guns more than they get shot. if you get a full steel weight you will find it being left at home more than used.

 

[Big Cholla]

My experience in owning alloy frames is limited to S&W autoloaders. I have never had a problem and I have shot the heck out of at least one 3913. I had a friend that shot IPSC with a 3913 and had a documented 50K plus rounds thru his before the smallest of cracks appeared in the frame. With that said......I recently attended and completed Clint Smith's "Revolver Only" class at Thunder Ranch. There were 11 of us on the firing line. Three of us (all retired LEOs) were shooting all steel S&Ws using the non-lead .38 Special preferred by Clint for use on his range. Eight others were shooting either aluminum or non-obtainium alloy framed S&Ws. Most were .38 Spec. but some were .45acp. Before we completed three days of shooting just over 725 rounds, every one of those non-steel framed revolvers had gone down needing significant repair. A couple could not be returned to service for the next day. One man went thru 3 ea. different non-steel framed revolvers and finished the course using an autoloader in 9mm!

While I appreciate the design parameters the non-steel revolvers were built to, I think they richly deserve the old adage, "Carry a lot and shoot a little."

A side note; the retired LEO on my right shot a new Model 60-15 with the lock and no internal work for the full course and never missed a lick. The retired LEO on my left shot a really old Model 36 that had been hard chromed at one time. His handgun never missed a lick. I shot a Model 66-1/2.5" bbl. that I have slicked up internally. The screw holding the rear sight on loosened slightly and I just tightened it up with my Swiss Army Knife. Of course we were all cleaning and oiling thoroughly each night. ....... Big Cholla

 

[SW CQB 45]

my alloy CQB has over 13K off ball or duty type ammo.

slide to frame fit is still snug

no signs of cracks

go for the alloy if a deal

 

[KurtC]

The only aluminum frame Smith auto failures I am aware of involved some early .40 caliber guns back in the early 90's, when the cartridge was new. I think they cracked a few barrels as well. Nothing since.

 

[epj]

I have a 4" Kimber .45 with an alloy frame. Shot it many rounds and still just like new. Mostly light range loads, however. My 4566TSW is almost identical in size, but somewhat heavier. I think I can get the 4566 back on target a little quicker. At plate matches other competetors have asked what sort of load I'm using since my Kimber appears to kick so hard.Actually, it doesn't kick hard at all, but the muzzle rise is pretty significant. They don't realize it's an alloy frame. As soon as I get more familiar and get some more trigger time on my 4566, it may replace the Kimber at matchs. If I had to carry it all day, the Kimber would get the nod. Bottom line: I wouldn't be scared of the alloy frame unless you plan a steady diet of abusive loads.

 

[rrockefe]

I have an LEO 3913 trade-in from J&G Sales. I have put somewhere between 5-7000 rounds through it, all fairly light reloads (just enough powder to reliably function) for target practice. The last time I cleaned it I found a frame crack from the opening at the rear end of the slide stop running forward horizontally about 1/2" then upward to the rail. Obviously a total loss at this point. Discussed with S&W and they will do nothing on a trade-in like this. Of course I have no idea how many rounds went through before I got it. but it was in very good shape cosmetically.

So, I have an M&P 9mm on order now. Warranty!

 

[mlk18]

Alloy will definitely wear or peen faster than steel will. But the difference in life span is negligible (for all practical purposes). People have put 30,000-40,000+ rounds through Smith & Wesson alloy frames. You would be able to put more through steel, but not many people will ever reach 30,000 rounds no matter what metal is used in the frame. Now if you shoot around 200-300 rounds a month, every month, every year, year after year, and will do so for at least the next decade; then maybe you should hold out for steel. Otherwise alloy will serve you just as well.

 

[WR Moore]

Smith had a vault with frames w/o serial numbers for frame replacements. I expect if you're willing to pay for the frame, shouldn't be a problem. They'll duplicate your old serial number.

After the 70 series 1911s were announced, I had Colt replace my frame. Don't recall what it cost, but wasn't all that bad, they engraved the same serial number.

 

[GJH77]

Is there a significant difference in cost between a 4566 and the 4563 you found? It sounds like weight of the gun is a difference, but is it a factor in your decision to buy?
There are a lot of 4566's around for sale. Why not wait and get what you want? I got the 4566 as a police trade in and couldn't be happier with it.

 

[carbuncle]

I've got a well-used 6906 that isn't showing signs of any durability issues!

 

[gboling]

Is there a significant difference in cost between a 4566 and the 4563 you found? It sounds like weight of the gun is a difference, but is it a factor in your decision to buy?
There are a lot of 4566's around for sale. Why not wait and get what you want? I got the 4566 as a police trade in and couldn't be happier with it.

The 4563 I found is about twice the cost of a recently missed 4566. The weight is of little concern, only longevity.

My biggest problem is that I am in the United Soviet Socialist Republic of California. The 4566 is still on the DOJ approved list for importation until Dec. 2010. My problem is that handguns must be shipped to an FFL dealer who must maintain a record of the transaction forever, subject his records and thus, his reputation, to BATF scrutiny for little or no monetary compensation. Most dealers will not accept out of state transfers and some sellers will not ship to the USSRC.

 

[Rock185]

Even with the Calif. importation issues, I'd wait for the stainless steel 4566, if that's what I really wanted. I have owned a number of 39-2s, and at least one 39. I currently have an alloy-framed PC 4563 CQB, purchased new. None saw more than moderate use, with the CQB being used the most. The anodizing on the alloy frames, standard production and PC, has, on my guns anyway, started to wear through to the base aluminum pretty quickly. I have never cracked an alloy frame on a S&W, but did on my light weight Colt Commander. The Commander, purchased new, cracked on the left side, adjacent to where the slide comes to a stop against the frame. I stop-drilled the crack and the Commander is still in use. Also, at least on my guns, the slide to frame fit became a bit looser on the alloy-framed guns as the anodizing wore through, with moderate use. On the stainless steel-framed S&W autos I have owned, 639, 3906, 1006, 1026, 1076, CQB 4566, etc, frame to slide fit seems to remain unchanged with use. ymmv

 

[gboling]

Thanks for all the input. I will now pass on alloy frames.

 

[andyo5]

Unless you shoot really high power loads or shoot thousands of rounds per year, your aluminum frame should last a lifetime.
I have a 4583 and love the gun. It is much lighter than a 4586 and is a serious contender for concealed carry. The steel guns are just too heavy.
One option is to get an aluminum gun for carry, and a steel gun for practice.

 

[GJH77]

The 4566 is still on the DOJ approved list for importation until Dec. 2010.

gboling-or anyone in CA-
Does this mean that next year you will not be able to buy a 4566 in CA or that they will just not be "imported"? What happens to the 4563 that is already in the store?

 

[NineToes]

My poor little 469!

I realize I'm late to the party here, but I just got my 469 back from S&W after sending it in for the safety recall (empty mag & half-cocked hammer). I know, that was waaay back there, but the real problem came with the call from S&W.

It seems while disassembling my 469 to do the fix they'd discovered a crack in the frame, inside the grip, where the web of the shooter's hand sits when shooting. This was my first alloy-framed S&W, and I really like it. I'm puzzled as I've never fired anything but factory ammo, and no hot stuff.

They say they're out of parts for the oldies and sent it back unrepaired, in the same state it was when I sent it in. They offered me a discount on a new gun, an M&P, which would cost me $450 (so they said).

Well, not only do I not want an M&P (I have a number of other polymer pistols), but I don't want to give up my 469. I'm also somewhat skittish about other S&W alloy pistols, especially 1st gen.

I'd include pics but my son borrowed my digital camera for his vacation, so maybe later.

Anybody heard of such a problem, and what might be done to resolve it?

Thanks to all respondents...

 

[Screwball]

I wouldn't mind an alloy frame... my Beretta has one (so does my 642, but that is a little different).

If I had the choice between steel and alloy, I'd definitely go steel. I love the feel of my 1006, and it is just something you don't get out of alloy frames.

I used to never want to move to polymer frames, but now I own three (two PX4s and a LCP). With modern production, as long as you stick with a quality company, you'll be fine with any of the three.

 

[Cruiser RN]

Hi.I have thousands and thousands of rounds out of my CS9 and the only thing that will need routine replacing is the Recoil Spring every 2k rounds or so.My frame looks as good today as when I bought it.....God Bless....Mike

 

[18DAI]

NineToes, is the crack in the grip frame itself, or the backstrap that attaches to the grip frame?

You can replace the aluminum backstrap yourself. If the crack is in the grip frame, any competent gunsmith should be able to drill the crack to stop it from growing.

Try a local gunsmith and see what they say. If your interested, Cherry's fine guns has a 99% 469 for a good price, and they ship. It is on their website. Hope this helps!

To the OP. I've only broken one aluminum frame pistol. A 910 I had around....or over 20,000 rounds through cracked a frame rail. My other aluminum framed pistols all exhibit some peening and frame wear, but are reliable and accurate.

For shooting alot of rounds through, I've gone the steel framed pistols. I love my 3913's, PC CQB and other aluminum framed 3rd generation pistols. There won't be any more like them, so I shoot them sparingly these days and use them for what they excell at; carrying all day. Regards 18DAI.

 

[NineToes]

S&W 469 Cracked Frame

I've posted some pictures now. I'd call the broken area part of the grip frame, but you can see it in the pics. The left side is cracked at the bottom (see the part under the locking clip) while the right side has cracked top and bottom and the piece is actually missing. To me it appears as part of the frame, and while I can TIG weld, the piece is so small and the metal so thin that it'll be a challenge. I will also have to fabricate a small section to "patch" the right side.

It seems that the material in this area is no more than 1/16" thick, so I'm puzzled. If S&W made is so thin, they must've figured there'd be very little force applied in that area, yet something made it break. Since the rest of the gun isn't worn (no peening of the frame, etc.) and I've never shot heavy loads in it, or even very many rounds at all, what happened?

Any ideas are welcome!

 

[18DAI]

Mmm....that does not appear to be good at all. IMO that 469 is probably done.

I've not seen anything like that with a 2nd or 3rd generation pistol before. Given the pistols history you stated, I'd suspect a manufacturing defect. Especially with the cracks in the same location on the left as well as the missing piece in a similar location on the other side.

Were I you, I'd look for a new 469. Good luck! Regards 18DAI.

 

[NineToes]

Yes, I'm looking for a new 469, and have a bead on one now (sorry, bad pun). Having measured the thickness of the material in that area, I'm surprised it was designed that way, but I suppose in a quest for light weight a lot of material was removed.

I may still see if I can TIG it, or have it done, as I've taken to doing some refinishing and repair on a few guns as a hobby. I'm going to check with a friend who isn't a shooter, but a machinist, and see if we can come up with a piece that can be welded into the right side, where it is missing.

Strangely, none of these breaks made any difference in how the gun shoots, at least at the 7 yards I use as a maximum with this gun.

There's just something about these old, metal guns that appeals to me so much more than the modern polymer guns.

 

[andyo5]

I need to point out that the 5906 that you say cracked is an all steel model.
I have a 4583 with an alloy frame and have no reservations about shooting it.