SMK
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Ferlach Proof Marks...Help
- Thread starter SMK
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I sold a Ferlach recently. It was o/u 16g- 8x57R. I think the name
on it was Timner Ferlach. Over the years I've had 3 Ferlach guns.
All them were WW2 bring homes. All have been combo guns.
There was no shortage of proof marks on them. I am not into
them. A collector explained to me they were "Guild" guns out of
Austia. They were put together from craftsmen who specialized
in one part of the making, to come up with the final gun. One
I owned was engraved and gold filled, trigger guard was made
of horn, stock had carving instead of checkering, and cheek piece
was a trapdoor under which there was holes drilled for ammo
storage. I screwed up and sold one (1st one) way to cheap. These are hi quality guns and are bringing premium prices in
decent condition.
on it was Timner Ferlach. Over the years I've had 3 Ferlach guns.
All them were WW2 bring homes. All have been combo guns.
There was no shortage of proof marks on them. I am not into
them. A collector explained to me they were "Guild" guns out of
Austia. They were put together from craftsmen who specialized
in one part of the making, to come up with the final gun. One
I owned was engraved and gold filled, trigger guard was made
of horn, stock had carving instead of checkering, and cheek piece
was a trapdoor under which there was holes drilled for ammo
storage. I screwed up and sold one (1st one) way to cheap. These are hi quality guns and are bringing premium prices in
decent condition.
Check with these people they often give very detailed explanations as to European proof marks!
The DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com - Forums powered by UBB.threads™
The DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com - Forums powered by UBB.threads™
OP
SMK
US Veteran
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2006
- Messages
- 82
- Reaction score
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Thanks, I tried for awhile to get a URL to post over on the double guns website, but it wasn't working out for me for some reason. Thought I'd give it a try here. I've been selling and rolling my investment into fewer nicer guns. Easier to store and more smiles.
URL I posted works for me, but cannot explain any computer/internet issues as I struggle with issues also and sometimes get lucky. There are people on this site that belong to the referenced DBBlgun site, perhaps they will come by and help?
Do am search on this site for 'proof marks' and maybe that will give you some sources to investigate. Good luck!
Do am search on this site for 'proof marks' and maybe that will give you some sources to investigate. Good luck!
Starting closest to the breech on the top bbl (rifle bbl I assume),,the intertwined E/F is the Ferlach 'provisional proof' mark. A provisional proof is one done on the barrels (usually shotgun bbls) in their early state of mfg to show any defects. So the mfg doesn't waste time and effort on a poor quality bbl.
The next proof stamp is the Ferlach Black Powder definitive proof (Final Proof).
Done when the gun was finished manufactured and complete. The symbol should have a small '1' in the center of the imprint for the Ferlach proof facility.
A '2' would indicate the Vienna proof house. I think a '2' was also used for the proof facility set up right at the Steyr Gun Works at this early stage too. Mandatory proof started in 1891.
I don't see a 'NPf' (Nitro Proof/Ferlach) stamp. So I can't assume the shotgun bbls were ever factory proofed for smokeless powder.
FWIW, I found info that states the rifle BP proof loads were 30% over standard load pressures (but could not find what the standard pressure was rated at.
The Austrian Shotgun Black Powder PROOF loads were rated at 8800 psi. From my experience, field loads (12ga BP loads generally run in 6500psi range.
Don't push these oldsters too hard even if they are 'steel bbl' guns,,JMO opf course.
The 1122.01 is a proof date code.
The gun was # 1122 firearm proofed at Ferlach in 1901. (Assuming the Diffinitive Proof stamp is from Ferlach. If it's Vienna's,, then the code is the same date,,just from another proof house.
The 10.0 out on the bbl..Should be the caliber expressed in m/m and tenth's of a m/m. A .40cal cartridge or there abouts if that guess is correct.
Probably measured with a plug gauge at a predetermined point.
That would be the bore diameter, not the groove diameter as we normally do to ID the calibers. So a .400 bore w/a .408/410 groove dia wouldn't be out of the relm of possibility if my guess is anywhere near correct.
On the lower bbl in the pic, the left bbl,,
Again the provisional proof for Ferlach as on the other bbl.
Next a Ferlach proof house mark denoting second proof of shotgun or multibbl guns (no difference noted). This is a black powder proof and a final proof of the bbl assembly. The mark is a Crown/ a shield shaped marking. Again no smokeless or nitro proof mark noted.
The 16.1 marking out on the bbls should be the gauge marking of the bore done at a predetermined distance (usually 9 or 10 inches) from the breech and measured with plug gauges.
That's pretty common with proofing practices.
A 16.1 dia plug enters and slides through the bore at that point,,but the 16.2 plug gauge does not. So the bore is marked 16.1.
It doesn't mean it's 16.1 gauge dia,,it simply means it's less than 16.2. The English did the same thing.
When guns are worked over and bbls honed out say in this case, the bbl could legally be honed to the point where a 16.2 still wouldn't pass through and you didn't have to get it re=proofed before sale or giving it back to the customer.
But if that 16.2 plug gauge slides by,,it better have a re-proof markings on it before it goes back out on the rack.
The gov't is there to protect you....
The next proof stamp is the Ferlach Black Powder definitive proof (Final Proof).
Done when the gun was finished manufactured and complete. The symbol should have a small '1' in the center of the imprint for the Ferlach proof facility.
A '2' would indicate the Vienna proof house. I think a '2' was also used for the proof facility set up right at the Steyr Gun Works at this early stage too. Mandatory proof started in 1891.
I don't see a 'NPf' (Nitro Proof/Ferlach) stamp. So I can't assume the shotgun bbls were ever factory proofed for smokeless powder.
FWIW, I found info that states the rifle BP proof loads were 30% over standard load pressures (but could not find what the standard pressure was rated at.
The Austrian Shotgun Black Powder PROOF loads were rated at 8800 psi. From my experience, field loads (12ga BP loads generally run in 6500psi range.
Don't push these oldsters too hard even if they are 'steel bbl' guns,,JMO opf course.
The 1122.01 is a proof date code.
The gun was # 1122 firearm proofed at Ferlach in 1901. (Assuming the Diffinitive Proof stamp is from Ferlach. If it's Vienna's,, then the code is the same date,,just from another proof house.
The 10.0 out on the bbl..Should be the caliber expressed in m/m and tenth's of a m/m. A .40cal cartridge or there abouts if that guess is correct.
Probably measured with a plug gauge at a predetermined point.
That would be the bore diameter, not the groove diameter as we normally do to ID the calibers. So a .400 bore w/a .408/410 groove dia wouldn't be out of the relm of possibility if my guess is anywhere near correct.
On the lower bbl in the pic, the left bbl,,
Again the provisional proof for Ferlach as on the other bbl.
Next a Ferlach proof house mark denoting second proof of shotgun or multibbl guns (no difference noted). This is a black powder proof and a final proof of the bbl assembly. The mark is a Crown/ a shield shaped marking. Again no smokeless or nitro proof mark noted.
The 16.1 marking out on the bbls should be the gauge marking of the bore done at a predetermined distance (usually 9 or 10 inches) from the breech and measured with plug gauges.
That's pretty common with proofing practices.
A 16.1 dia plug enters and slides through the bore at that point,,but the 16.2 plug gauge does not. So the bore is marked 16.1.
It doesn't mean it's 16.1 gauge dia,,it simply means it's less than 16.2. The English did the same thing.
When guns are worked over and bbls honed out say in this case, the bbl could legally be honed to the point where a 16.2 still wouldn't pass through and you didn't have to get it re=proofed before sale or giving it back to the customer.
But if that 16.2 plug gauge slides by,,it better have a re-proof markings on it before it goes back out on the rack.
The gov't is there to protect you....
OP
SMK
US Veteran
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2006
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- 82
- Reaction score
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2152hq
Thank you for sharing your expertise. I very much appreciate it. This was one of my dad's guns. I have no doubt he shot black powder shotshells thru it. I can't remember if he used the rifle barrel or not. There must have been a problem with the hammer screws as he cut new screws and replaced a missing front sling swivel.
Thank you for sharing your expertise. I very much appreciate it. This was one of my dad's guns. I have no doubt he shot black powder shotshells thru it. I can't remember if he used the rifle barrel or not. There must have been a problem with the hammer screws as he cut new screws and replaced a missing front sling swivel.
