FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45

[mike campbell]

Some thoughts from a fellow addicted experimenter.

I use milk jugs full of water.

The medium has remained fairly consistent for 30 years. The one gallon milk jugs I used today look remarkably similar to those from 1985. Despite the extra heavy metals present these days, the water seems to have about the same viscosity it used to have...as long as I test above 32F.

This is lab-testing for me. Screening for winners and losers, not trying to put a man on the moon. I don't care whether or how close water emulates the human body ... if it doesn't expand in water jugs it's "improperly designed for the velocity". Since I'm always restricted by the velocity I can obtain, failure to expand at my velocity means it's a failure for me...not necessarily a failure for what the designer had in mind. Regardless; poor expansion in milk jugs = useless to me. Penetration is just an interesting side note at this point; something to consider in the final stages of development, when choosing between first and second place winners.

If I were tackling this job, I'd get a few .38 cal bullets, 158-180 grain hollow points cast from dead-soft lead. Soft lead WILL expand at 800 fps MV. They'd be intended, of course for heavy .357 magnum loads, and would normally be hard-cast. I'd need a relationship with the caster so that he would 1) cast some from pure lead for me and 2) size them to .355-356.

After that, it would be a matter of determining just how fast I could safely launch them. A 180gr @ 800 fps is a power factor of 144....doable in a 9mm with conservative data. But that would depend on what I found in uncharted territory with respect to a suitable powder, getting the gun to feed, etc. Not for the novice reloader for sure. If I couldn't reach 800 fps, I'd be home early.

Here's what I did with low-velocity, pure lead HP's. Leading shut me down after 15-20 rounds but, hey, who wouldn't feel comfortable with just 10 of these?

 

[rwsmith]

Hardly opened at all...

Looking at your velocities, I'd expect your expansion for LSWCHP bullets in 9mm to be about the same as in a .38 Spl. My personal experience with that bullet form and velocities-even with factory ammo- is great penetration, questionable expansion. I've never recovered any even after penetration of ~24" of tissue simulant. That being the case, I doubt there's significant expansion.

It didn't do nearly as well as a .38. 927 fps SHOULD be enough velocity to get good expansion.

From the data:

"The diameter of the first bullet was .316" and .379" at largest and smallest dimension. The diameter of the second bullet .376" and .393"."

When I set off those 10 rounds I made, I will put a couple of the .38s and known nines.

 

[pittpa]

NOVX makes this claim, a 9mm 65gr ARX bullet at 1655 fps.

Exclusive: .45 ACP Power in a 9mm Package? NovX Next-Gen AmmoAmerican Handgunner | American Handgunner

 

[rwsmith]

If I do more of this....

Some thoughts from a fellow addicted experimenter.

I use milk jugs full of water.

The medium has remained fairly consistent for 30 years. The one gallon milk jugs I used today look remarkably similar to those from 1985. Despite the extra heavy metals present these days, the water seems to have about the same viscosity it used to have...as long as I test above 32F.

LOL! If I do more after this series, I'll probably use water jugs.

I think I will need to try the Vhitavuori Powder. And I should get a box of the Double Tap ammo. The experiment justifies the expenditure.

Boy, I should have thought that even implying any competition between two calibers was going to open a can of worms. I should have worded it, "Can the 9mm Luger be made more effective by using a slow heavy bullet?"

I found a video on the Double Tap 9mm 165 grain jhp. Turns out it is a 115 gr hollow point over a 50 grain slug penetrator. Not quite the same Idea. But seeing that they think a 165 gr round is useful makes me feel a little more that I'm on track.