FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45

[steelslaver]

And I'm not talking rounds for snipers, but up close defense.

My point was

Fire power is fine, ACCURACY if FINAL

Don't mater what you carry, how many rounds you have, what the bullets or velocity is, if the rounds are not hitting the target.

Shooting newspapers, ballistic jell, jugs full of water are all mute, compared to realistic practice and the ability to hit your target.

Pick a good bullet load combo for the gun your going to crry and practice with it ALOT.

No bullet of load combination is infallible. People have survived multiple hitss with a 44 mag. Grizzly bears have been killed with a 22, but only a complete idiot would go hunting them with one.

 

[SA1911]

In Paul Matthews's 40 Years with the .40/70 he put physics theory to test. He wrote of a thick piece of steel that he would shoot with his '06 (light and fast). The ringing of bullet striking steel was his indicator of bullet on target. His '06 would never penetrate his steel target.

He was given cast loads for an older .45/70 he had acquired. From memory, his bullets were ~400 grains at modest velocity (big & slow). He fired one at his steel target. The bullet penetrated his steel target, the same target that withstood '06 rounds. He had assumed that his '06 was superior for big game hunting.

The result of his .45/70 piqued his interest. He went on to acquire a few .45/70 rifles. Again from memory, everything he shot with a big and slow .45/70 bullet was a one-shot kill, mostly whitetail. If I recall correctly, Matthews never loaded a .45/70 to its potential in a modern rifle, including Ruger single shots.

The .45/70 is closing in on a buck fifty in age. It has only gotten better. It has killed everything that walks Earth.

The .45 ACP needs no support from me. It has proved itself as battle handgun cartridge and a law enforcement handgun cartridge.

While I do not own a 9MM, I hold no animosity for it. However, it reality, it is inferior to The King of tactical handgun cartridges.

[ame]https://www.amazon.com/Forty-Years-45-Paul-Matthews/dp/0935632840[/ame]

 

[rwsmith]

Let's clear up a few things..

This thread is old, long and very involved. To get back to the baseline,

I don't believe in 'stopping power', but use the term similarly to 'effectiveness'. The .45 is a proven effective round, though it has been known to fail. Did I mention the guy that had three .45 scars on his chest with a tattoo that read ".45s ain't ****"?

I did mention in post #30 that accuracy is the most important regardless of caliber or bullet configuration.

In the title of the thread 'more like a .45' is not the same as 'like a .45'. I know I'm not going to equal a .45, but I'd like to get close as possible. If anything comes out of this I might change my SD load to a 147 gr JHP Gold Dot, HTPs. Golden Saber or something similar.

Shooting twice is a very good idea, regardless of caliber. Heck, shooting three times is even better. I think that rounds left in the mag are just wasted.

Though I'm not a great shot, I avoid spray and pray in spite of having mags up to 17 rounds. My Shield holds 10 and I try to make every shot count.

Trying to do this in a Kel tec P11 with a 2" barrel is a challenge. I've had to modify my original plans due to available bullets and data, but the heavy, soft bullet is the key to what I'm trying to do. The reason I'm using a 2" barrel is that most any carry gun has a 2" or longer barrel. Most of the published data says that a 7: barrel was used. Not realistic for the real world.

 

[Practical]

To get a 115 grain 9x19mm bullet to act like a single 45ACP round of 230 grain, fire 2 9mm rounds from a barrel 4 to 4.5 inches in length.

I believe the desired terminal effect will be achieved if both are accurately place at center of mass within 3 inches of each other.

 

[Bkreutz]

I've never been able to push a 124 grain bullet to 1200 fps and neither has the Hornady Handbook.

I have, however, been able to get 185 grain .451 diameter bullets up to 1000 fps (and Hornady provides loads that will supposedly go faster).

My normal competition load is 124 gr bullet chronoed at 1400 fps, don't ask me for the recipe because it's obviously not in the books but it's used every weekend by thousands of shooters around the world.

 

[SA1911]

I did mention in post #30 that accuracy is the most important regardless of caliber or bullet configuration.

This is an oft relied upon quote from those who want to believe the 9MM is the .45 ACP's equal.

Tell me, Mr. Smith, just how accurate do you think you're gonna be when a banger who ain't afraid to die is putting rounds on you?
The reality is accuracy does not come into play in gunfights. Staying vertical is the dominant and immediate concern. If you were to hit a bad guy anywhere on his body, it would be a good hit, for in a gunfight there is no such thing as a bad hit.

If this is true: "Did I mention the guy that had three .45 scars on his chest with a tattoo that read ".45s ain't ****"?" the tatted dude was/is a moron. Were he possessive of an IQ above a moron, he'd wear a crucifix around his neck.

 

[KSDeputy]

Easiest way, buy a .45.

 

[rwsmith]

What I said (collectively)

This is an oft relied upon quote from those who want to believe the 9MM is the .45 ACP's equal.

Tell me, Mr. Smith, just how accurate do you think you're gonna be when a banger who ain't afraid to die is putting rounds on you?
The reality is accuracy does not come into play in gunfights. Staying vertical is the dominant and immediate concern. If you were to hit a bad guy anywhere on his body, it would be a good hit, for in a gunfight there is no such thing as a bad hit.

If this is true: "Did I mention the guy that had three .45 scars on his chest with a tattoo that read ".45s ain't ****"?" the tatted dude was/is a moron. Were he possessive of an IQ above a moron, he'd wear a crucifix around his neck.

Let's put it this way.

What I said was that if you compare two types of ammo. One groups at 1" at 10 yards and the other groups at 1.5" at 10 yards. The 1/2" is not as important as being able to hit the center of mass under whatever circumstances.

And the moron with the .45 scars, just saying that .45s aren't 'instant stops' because they are .45s. I'm NOT engaging in caliber wars here. I'm trying a ballistics experiment to have a 9mm ACT MORE like a .45, through means of penetration and expansion. It doesn't mean I need or want to carry a .45 or think that either is 'better' or is preferable or 'better' than the other. Whether the exercise valuable or not isn't the point. I'd like to try it for myself.

I'm going to the range today, cartridges, chronometer, tape measure and bucket of pulp.

 

[rwsmith]

I'm off to the range......PICTURES

Here are the cartridges I'm going to use. They plunk nicely in the barrel I'm going to use and the 9mm Wilson gauge.

I was only able to get 5.8 gr. of Acc #7 before they got too long. If I were using a hard bullet, I might be able to compress the load to get more, but these bullets are as soft as marshmallows and deform before seating.

I've got my bucket of pulp, chronometer, measuring tape, gun and cartridges.

Also, just because they plunk and are well within max OAL, doesn't mean they'll function in that little Kel Tec. But if I can get shots fired into the pulp, I'll be happy.

 

[Rick_A]

How has nobody mentioned the 45GAP?

I think somebody even still makes pistols in the caliber.

 

[rwsmith]

Range report....not what I expected..... (some pictures)

Ok, got to the range, set up as below, 10' from the muzzle of the guns I was shooting into 12" of pulp from newspapers that were taken apart, well, soaked overnight and packed in, except I poured more water in a couple of hours before the range to make sure everything was saturated. I got everything set up at the range. (picture)

First I targeted my round because I thought they might shoot a little high. I shot the target, then shot at the hole it made. Same level. So, surprisingly, I didn't have to make any adjustments for the cartridge.

Then, I checked velocity. I got 927 fps several times, so I shot my carbine just to make sure the chrono was working. It was, so 927 fps is the velocity. This isn't any more velocity than the 5.6 gr Acc#7 I tried before. I thought for sure I could get 950 fps.

I shot 3 bullets from the 2" Kel Tec. The specs say 3.1" barrel, but knock off the length of the chamber and it's about 2". The test I wanted was a short barrel to get data in the smallest practical carry guns.

While I was there, I shot 125 gr bullets out of my Third Gen full size and my Kel tec carbine (18" barrel). I also shot a Remington Gold Saber 125 gr. JHP into it. With the test bullets, the Kel Tec was mostly reliable with one failure to eject. I think that length (1.13" OAL) i almost all that I could get into that magazine. Maybe I could jam a bit more powder in, but I don't see the point.

I took the bucket home and started digging, and found the 125 gr coated bullet from the Kel Tec at 8". Mangled with no expansion. The 'wound channel' on the test bullets were prominent. (picture). I thought I was on the right track.

Well, I dug....and dug.....and dug and started thinking "Uh, oh". Yep, all the other bullets had gone through 12" of pulp and exited out the bottom of my sturdy 5 gallon Lowe's bucket. So, all I know is that penetration is 'adequate' and, have no idea what the max penetration would be, and have no bullets to compare or see pictures of. I wonder if I can drive 45 minutes back to Boggy Head and find them on the ground behind my target???

Note: The bullets shot from the carbine and the Third Gen veered and came out the side of the bucket at the base. I was pretty careful shooting right into the center but I can't tell which bullets did what. I followed the track of the test bullets all the way to the bottom, though.



I guess I'll have to make some more rounds, get a thicker stack of pulp and try it again.

PS: The first picture below is a few inches down to show the 'wound channel'. It didn't blow up like gel, but it's a pretty nasty hole.

PPS: Wow. I see I started this over 2 years ago. Heart rehab, finding data and making bullets that functioned slowed me down pretty good. Maybe we can put this to rest next time I go out.

PPPS: I see 'Double Tap' makes a 165 gr jhp +P round in 9mm called 'Equilizer'. I should pick some of those up and try them. MV of 900 fps. That's a bit of data I can use. A Double Tap +P load is probably close to max pressure.

 

[rwsmith]

It seems that Glock.....

How has nobody mentioned the 45GAP?

I think somebody even still makes pistols in the caliber.

It seems that Glock still makes the G37, G38 and G39 chambered for the .45 Glock Auto Pistol. Bond Arms makes some small pistols. That's interesting. I've never looked into the GAP, well, because I just.......never have.

The SC Highway Patrol uses them. Probably got them in a clearance sale.

 

[rwsmith]

Final experimental data and pictures.....

Final data and pics:

Well, the deed is done. After only getting velocity of 927 fps at the range and the penetration/expansion being indeterminate, I loaded up three more rounds of 9mm 158 gr. SWCHP and except for adding 9 " of pulp to my already damaged bucket, I repeated the shots at 10' from the muzzle.
I had one failure to fire. A carefully weighed and assembled cartridge. Just a dent in the primer so I only had two shots.

OK, DATA
I dug down 5" and saw two right nasty looking wound channels (see picture). I opened the ragged edges for better viewing.
The first bullet was at a depth of 13". The second was at a depth of 19" I can't account for the large disparity. Expansion in both was poor. I'd expected more but I'm not sure how hard these bullets are. They were easy to deform on the press, but didn't flatten/expand like a soft bullet. (See pictures)
The diameter of the first bullet was .316" and .379" at largest and smallest dimension. The diameter of the second bullet .376" and .393".

The first bullet was found lying sideways and the expanded part looked like it had been 'pinched'. The second showed the beginnings of a tri-petal expansion but the amount of expansion was small. Would a softer bullet have worked better? (see pictures)

Conclusion: I bigger sample might show some consistency in penetration, the difference in the two bullets was at the extreme ends of the acceptable 12" to 18", though the second bullet overpenetrated slightly. Exansion wasn't as good as many other 9mm bullets I"ve shot at various velocity. The wound channel, however, was almost large enough to put my index finger in and appeared very nasty (subjectively)

Will I pursue this further? I'm curious about Double Tap's 165 gr. JHP load. Also, if I were to find a softer bullet it would be worth another 'shot'. I found that with 5.8 gr. of Acc #7 that seating the bullet to the level of the powder without trying to compress it kept the bullets from deforming and the OAL was ok. I was surprised that showing so much shoulder of an SWC was able to chamber nicely in the Kel Tek. Anyway, any longer barrel than 2" should do at least as well as shown here.

 

[rwsmith]

I've thought about it and I'm going to continue......

While I've got everything I need worked out I'm not going to drop this right yet, as I believe that I can get more satisfactory and consistent data.

The 927 fps velocity is not bad and faster than the 830 fps I originally proposed for the 165 gr bullet.

I'm going to get a larger sample of bullets to test. At least 5 rounds.

I'm also going to open up the hollow point before I shoot them.

At least phase one is done.

 

[WR Moore]

Over the decades there have been various "test media" for bullet penetration, expansion and wound cavity. This included the soaked newsprint, big blocks of modeling clay/sealant and others. When compared to the results from ballistic gelatin, all the results proved grossly inaccurate.

Actually, even ballistic gel provides a comparative test, not a predictive test. Bodies aren't the same density all the way through.

Now there is one readily available media that does provide reasonable comparative results:water. You can do this with large bags or with milk jugs placed against each other. Expansion will be the same as ballistic gel. To make penetration relevant, you have to measure the distance in water, then divide by 1.55 to convert to ballistic gel.

[The milk jug system uses an assumption of 6 inchs for each complete jug, measurement for the jug it stops in. It gets a bit more complex, but my notes on the the system from a publication are elsewhere. I'll find them if there's interest.]

 

[Kurusu]

This is an oft relied upon quote from those who want to believe the 9MM is the .45 ACP's equal.

Tell me, Mr. Smith, just how accurate do you think you're gonna be when a banger who ain't afraid to die is putting rounds on you?
The reality is accuracy does not come into play in gunfights. Staying vertical is the dominant and immediate concern. If you were to hit a bad guy anywhere on his body, it would be a good hit, for in a gunfight there is no such thing as a bad hit.

If this is true: "Did I mention the guy that had three .45 scars on his chest with a tattoo that read ".45s ain't ****"?" the tatted dude was/is a moron. Were he possessive of an IQ above a moron, he'd wear a crucifix around his neck.

Accurate enough. Does that answer your question?

 

[Rule3]

I didn't dare read this whole thread.

Can anyone give me the shortened Cliff Notes Version?

Is there a conclusion?

EDIT

Well shazam !!all you really need is Federals NEW Hydro Shok 135 gr bullets!

Federal Premium Launches All-New Hydra-Shok Deep Personal Defense Load | Midsouth Shooters Blog

 

[rwsmith]

Cliff Notes version...

I didn't dare read this whole thread.

Can anyone give me the shortened Cliff Notes Version?

Is there a conclusion?

EDIT

Well shazam !!all you really need is Federals NEW Hydro Shok 135 gr bullets!

Federal Premium Launches All-New Hydra-Shok Deep Personal Defense Load | Midsouth Shooters Blog

I had an idea about the use of a soft, heavy 9mm SWCHP as an SD round and how effective it would be by getting the penetration of a heavy slug, but with effectiveness increased by expansion of the bullet.

I found some 165 grain heavy plated RN bullets and modified them into hollow points. I was stymied by lack of data but was able to get decent velocities. No expansion. The things were just too hard.

I ordered 158 grain hollow points that seemed to fit the bill. And there was a little more load data for them. They were very difficult to load for all kinds of reasons but I managed to get some shots off. Results inconclusive because the bullets went through the pulp and the bucket.

I tried again with thicker pulp. I shot two rounds and found the bullets 13" and 19" deep. Expansion was very poor in spite of the 927 fps velocity. I have no explanation for the extreme variation in depth.

I've got more rounds loaded up and I'm going to try again to get more and more consistent data.

The bullets seem soft enough and they are easily deformed if seated too hard. Why in the world didn't they expand in the test?

Though this is something not written about much, I found some more comment and data on such a round. And it turns out that Double Tap produces a 165 grain JPH in 9mm. THAT was a surpise. I'd like to get some or maybe find some test results on the web.

 

[Rule3]

It is fun to experiment. If you are really serious, you need to get some ballistic gel for tests, so all things are on an even playing field. (JMO)

 

[WR Moore]

Looking at your velocities, I'd expect your expansion for LSWCHP bullets in 9mm to be about the same as in a .38 Spl. My personal experience with that bullet form and velocities-even with factory ammo- is great penetration, questionable expansion. I've never recovered any even after penetration of ~24" of tissue simulant. That being the case, I doubt there's significant expansion.