...Somewhere there is something that will work if you actually hit the target!
Still tough to miss fast enough to win, regardless of caliber.
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45
- Thread starter rwsmith
- Start date
Still tough to miss fast enough to win, regardless of caliber.
OP
Well, with this info.....
With this info I can go right into terminal testing. I've seen a recipe for cheap ballistic gelatin somewhere. And if I get the xtreme plated 165 grain jobs, I'll have to modify the noses to approximate an expanding round. Oh boy, have we got fun?
With this info I can go right into terminal testing. I've seen a recipe for cheap ballistic gelatin somewhere. And if I get the xtreme plated 165 grain jobs, I'll have to modify the noses to approximate an expanding round. Oh boy, have we got fun?
OP
I read that....
I read that the idea behind the Gold Dots was a semi wadcutter with a huge hole they referred to as the 'flying ashtray'.
I read that the idea behind the Gold Dots was a semi wadcutter with a huge hole they referred to as the 'flying ashtray'.
S&W HE
Member
With this info I can go right into terminal testing. I've seen a recipe for cheap ballistic gelatin somewhere. And if I get the xtreme plated 165 grain jobs, I'll have to modify the noses to approximate an expanding round. Oh boy, have we got fun?
X-Treme offers a double plated 165 grain hollow point that I use in my 10mm loads. I don't use the HP bullet in the 40 because my "hot" loads are under 1200 fps and a HP bullet is not needed to shot cardboard or steel.
Assuming your discussing the 10mm short (40 S&W) loadings, here's one of my favorites:
Pistol: Para Ltd 40/6 / 5.0" Barrel
Caliber: 40 S&W
Bullet: X-Treme 165 gr. P-RNFP / 1.125" OAL
Powder / Charge: Accurate #7 / 9.2 grains (9.3 Max)
Primer: Federal 200
Brass:: A-USA
Chrono: Ave: 1160 fps ES: 33 SD: 12
Comment: Very little 40 S&W "Snap"
Suggestion: Spend some time here. Check out their methods and results. My 45 ACP carry load for the 3.0" 25 ounce 1911 is included and this data reinforced my tests as well as other available info.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
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Qc Pistolero
Member
A few good worms don't make the whole can bad.
Well,considering jacketted bullets,I must admit that I don't have experience enough to discuss the matter.I guess on that one I must concede.
Cast bullets,which are the only projectiles I use(and never happened to use them in sd I must add)have more penetration.I will not indulge with expansion experience about cast vs jacket bullets since I do not have any scientific or ''from the bottom of my pants''experience with jacketed bullets.I'm a firm believer of
A)penetration
B)by a large bullet
C)that will exit so as to dump as much blood from both ends of the wound.
The 9 is a good penetrator,being smaller than the .45(all else being equal)But it is the nose shape that counts;a large nose SWC in .38(like the Keith,Thompson or better,hard cast WC bullet) will do more damage.
Please read me right;the 9 is good but still only a 9mm or only as good as a .38 Spl +p or +p+ depending on the weight of the bullet.
But you could blame me of being a large caliber lover and to this,I could only bow down and thank you for.
Qc
OP
Usually over penetration is undesireable....
If you shoot through a perp in a defensive situation you may hit somebody behind the perp that you don't want to.
This to me is kind of a 'best of both worlds' approach. While having enough weight for good penetration and the ballooning design increases the diameter of the wound channel. 135 gr. Gold Dots are designed to expand at the 830 fps I'm looking for in 'my' bullet/cartridge combination. A heavy bullet designed to do the same i believe would be devastating. Kind of a 'best of both worlds' approach, or maybe a 'not as good as either cartridge' approach.
If you shoot through a perp in a defensive situation you may hit somebody behind the perp that you don't want to.
This to me is kind of a 'best of both worlds' approach. While having enough weight for good penetration and the ballooning design increases the diameter of the wound channel. 135 gr. Gold Dots are designed to expand at the 830 fps I'm looking for in 'my' bullet/cartridge combination. A heavy bullet designed to do the same i believe would be devastating. Kind of a 'best of both worlds' approach, or maybe a 'not as good as either cartridge' approach.
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OP
i ordered some 165 gr bullets......
......from XTREME. The are plated RN. First I'm going to do load/velocity testing.
I all is well, then I'm going to modify the bullets this way.
Flatten the nose into a meplat
Drill a hole in the center
Cut the meplat into sections with a razor knife.
Score the sides of the ogive in a similar way to JHPs to try to get some controlled expansion.
Shoot them into gelatin. I'm not as interested in denim/clothing at this stage as much as penetration/expansion.
I'll leave some unmodified and maybe add the HP, meplat cuts, ogive cuts as I get some idea of performance. This is going to be a long term project.
......from XTREME. The are plated RN. First I'm going to do load/velocity testing.
I all is well, then I'm going to modify the bullets this way.
Flatten the nose into a meplat
Drill a hole in the center
Cut the meplat into sections with a razor knife.
Score the sides of the ogive in a similar way to JHPs to try to get some controlled expansion.
Shoot them into gelatin. I'm not as interested in denim/clothing at this stage as much as penetration/expansion.
I'll leave some unmodified and maybe add the HP, meplat cuts, ogive cuts as I get some idea of performance. This is going to be a long term project.
Groo01
Member
Groo here
How to make a 9mm match a 45 acp?
The answer is ------ It depends!!!!!!!
What do you want it to do?
Damage the same amount of tissue?
A deep driving bullet that opens to at least .45 in.
Stop an attacker?
Much different mechanics.
The way many stops happen is by nerve damage.[AKA PAIN]
The 45 causes more pain because it damages more nerves.
The most in skin, next muscle, a little in organs ,next to none in bone.
The 45 acp driver a .45 hole through all.
A 9mm starts at .355, then a controlled opening to max opening.
As the bullet is rotating at many 1000 rpm the largest opening pettel
will control the damage till the rotation slows down.
The 9mm will damage [touch] fewer nerves than the nonexpanding 45.
Less shock [AKA PAIN} but the expanding 9mm may damage more
tissue [AKA BLEEDING].
Pain convinces you to stop, bleeding make you faint.
This is why the 357 125gr SJHP remington load worked so well.
The speed at impact caused the nose to blow off [With in the first 1/2 in or so] the base ,now a WC of about 100gr , would continue on causing
a deep wound.
Pain AND bleeding.
To make a 9mm work like a 45, load it like a 357.......
How to make a 9mm match a 45 acp?
The answer is ------ It depends!!!!!!!
What do you want it to do?
Damage the same amount of tissue?
A deep driving bullet that opens to at least .45 in.
Stop an attacker?
Much different mechanics.
The way many stops happen is by nerve damage.[AKA PAIN]
The 45 causes more pain because it damages more nerves.
The most in skin, next muscle, a little in organs ,next to none in bone.
The 45 acp driver a .45 hole through all.
A 9mm starts at .355, then a controlled opening to max opening.
As the bullet is rotating at many 1000 rpm the largest opening pettel
will control the damage till the rotation slows down.
The 9mm will damage [touch] fewer nerves than the nonexpanding 45.
Less shock [AKA PAIN} but the expanding 9mm may damage more
tissue [AKA BLEEDING].
Pain convinces you to stop, bleeding make you faint.
This is why the 357 125gr SJHP remington load worked so well.
The speed at impact caused the nose to blow off [With in the first 1/2 in or so] the base ,now a WC of about 100gr , would continue on causing
a deep wound.
Pain AND bleeding.
To make a 9mm work like a 45, load it like a 357.......
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Triathloncoach
Member
The way that I look at it is it like dropping a baseball or a bowling ball on your foot.
One has mass and a huge amount of knock down power.....
the smaller comes with 15 to 19 energy pills.
Either will ruin your day......... but no the 9mm 158gr bullet is
the only bullet short enough for a correct OAL in its short case.
This means it will never get close to a 200gr plus bullet that a .45 can swallow.
Close but no touch down.........
but I still love my 147gr HST in my C9 !!
One has mass and a huge amount of knock down power.....
the smaller comes with 15 to 19 energy pills.
Either will ruin your day......... but no the 9mm 158gr bullet is
the only bullet short enough for a correct OAL in its short case.
This means it will never get close to a 200gr plus bullet that a .45 can swallow.
Close but no touch down.........
but I still love my 147gr HST in my C9 !!
OP
Well, I did just receive....
....some 165 grain bullets that I can start with. The are plated X-treme RN. I like the profile of the nose and even though the bullets are LONG, I think I can get an appropriate amount of Power Pistol or Acc #7 in them and keep within the 1.65" max. One thing in my favor is that the heavier bullets use LESS powder than light bullets. I also have the option of compressed loads. Also, that I can flatten the nose into a meplat enough to drill them to HPs to get some idea of terminal performance, which will also shorten the length some. As soon as I get a chance, I'll post some pictures and get to the range for some velocity data. Boy, am I excited to have a project like this. Later I'll make some gelatin and get the results from that.
Signed, Your Ever Optimistic Experimenter.
PS: The question remains. Which pistols will such bullets actually operate in?
....some 165 grain bullets that I can start with. The are plated X-treme RN. I like the profile of the nose and even though the bullets are LONG, I think I can get an appropriate amount of Power Pistol or Acc #7 in them and keep within the 1.65" max. One thing in my favor is that the heavier bullets use LESS powder than light bullets. I also have the option of compressed loads. Also, that I can flatten the nose into a meplat enough to drill them to HPs to get some idea of terminal performance, which will also shorten the length some. As soon as I get a chance, I'll post some pictures and get to the range for some velocity data. Boy, am I excited to have a project like this. Later I'll make some gelatin and get the results from that.
Signed, Your Ever Optimistic Experimenter.
PS: The question remains. Which pistols will such bullets actually operate in?
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OP
How I would tackle that.....
A jacketed bullet with a wedge slice out of the lead about halfway down the bullet. On impact the bullet bends into a 'boomerang' shape. Manufacturing would be tricky, but manageable
Another approach would be to have the nose jacket collapse into a wedge shape. This would be easier to make.
Or maybe design a HP with cuts that will only allow half of the nose to expand. The asymmetry should result in a tumbling bullet.
Maybe one day we can look into that.
True detective? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and
assume you're joking
experience to make 9mm ball more effective for close up
work then then learn from history and the Government military
ammo designers around the world. Create a 9mm 124 gr FMJ
design that tumbles in soft tissue quicker than the current
design. A 124 gr 9mm FMJ bullet is a good bit longer than
.45" I do believe.
A jacketed bullet with a wedge slice out of the lead about halfway down the bullet. On impact the bullet bends into a 'boomerang' shape. Manufacturing would be tricky, but manageable
Another approach would be to have the nose jacket collapse into a wedge shape. This would be easier to make.
Or maybe design a HP with cuts that will only allow half of the nose to expand. The asymmetry should result in a tumbling bullet.
Maybe one day we can look into that.
OP
Early on I pretty much indicated...
Your first and second points are the answer. Use the increased mass to penetrate and have plenty of material to blow up to at least .45" dia. as long as the bullets are made to expand at 840 fps.
I've got the 165 gr bullets and I want to form a meplat both to reduce overall length and provide a flat for drilling a hollow point.
165 grains may be the max, though I havn't proved that. The reason is that with the recommended Acc#7 load, I think I'm going to have to compress the load. Heavier bullet need less powder, true, but this is a BIG bullet and I doubt any heavier will be serviceable. I do have the Power Pistol powder that I haven't tried to seat the bullet with. It may be better than the Acc 7 powder.
Problem: These 'Xtreme' Bullets are also extremely HARD. Their site says 18 brin. I tried to flatten the nose of one of the bullets but it didn't work at all. Like trying to flatten a steel bullet.
Well, I'm going to make up a few and take them to the range for velocity testing at least.
PS. I just had a barnstorm. I was getting ready to prime the cases and I thought that maybe I can reduce the volume of the powder by using magnum primers.
Your first and second points are the answer. Use the increased mass to penetrate and have plenty of material to blow up to at least .45" dia. as long as the bullets are made to expand at 840 fps.
I've got the 165 gr bullets and I want to form a meplat both to reduce overall length and provide a flat for drilling a hollow point.
165 grains may be the max, though I havn't proved that. The reason is that with the recommended Acc#7 load, I think I'm going to have to compress the load. Heavier bullet need less powder, true, but this is a BIG bullet and I doubt any heavier will be serviceable. I do have the Power Pistol powder that I haven't tried to seat the bullet with. It may be better than the Acc 7 powder.
Problem: These 'Xtreme' Bullets are also extremely HARD. Their site says 18 brin. I tried to flatten the nose of one of the bullets but it didn't work at all. Like trying to flatten a steel bullet.
Well, I'm going to make up a few and take them to the range for velocity testing at least.
PS. I just had a barnstorm. I was getting ready to prime the cases and I thought that maybe I can reduce the volume of the powder by using magnum primers.
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The 10mm was a great round with a 180gr +/- at around 1280fps
and in a G20 at 2.5lbs loaded had a recoil of 10.15 lbs.
This heavy recoil with some of the "light framed" FBI agents, had
problems controlling this loading. One reason it was passed on.
The 40 s&w in a G22 at 2.1lbs pushed a 165gr at around 1150fps
with a recoil that only had 7.30 lbs. This loading was accepted
due to the fact that it was manageable for all the shooters.
The large dia. 45 ACP in a G30 at 2.1 pounds, pushed a huge 230gr
JHP at around 900fps (+/-) and was in the middle of the 40 & 10
with a std and +P loading from 9.0 to 9.6 ft/lbs of recoil.
In a heavier all metal 1911 the recoil would be reduced by a huge amount
but I did not have time to look up the weight, of these pistols
and do a work up. Sorry.
It still comes down to what is king of the hill............
Velocity or bullet weight and the weapon used.
Later.
and in a G20 at 2.5lbs loaded had a recoil of 10.15 lbs.
This heavy recoil with some of the "light framed" FBI agents, had
problems controlling this loading. One reason it was passed on.
The 40 s&w in a G22 at 2.1lbs pushed a 165gr at around 1150fps
with a recoil that only had 7.30 lbs. This loading was accepted
due to the fact that it was manageable for all the shooters.
The large dia. 45 ACP in a G30 at 2.1 pounds, pushed a huge 230gr
JHP at around 900fps (+/-) and was in the middle of the 40 & 10
with a std and +P loading from 9.0 to 9.6 ft/lbs of recoil.
In a heavier all metal 1911 the recoil would be reduced by a huge amount
but I did not have time to look up the weight, of these pistols
and do a work up. Sorry.
It still comes down to what is king of the hill............
Velocity or bullet weight and the weapon used.
Later.
joeintexas
US Veteran
I don't know about you guys but my head hurts! Too much thinking this early.
bronco45
Member
Just to add my two bits. I solved this problem with a S&W 40c. 40 S&W in a 3.5" barrel. 11 rounds topped up and 155 grain JHPs at 1120fps. Loads are easily attainable, accurate and controllable. Greater capacity than a 45 and carries in a 9mm sized handgun. Love my M&P 45c but it is my house gun with a TLR3 light attached. The M&P40c goes with me when I'm out and about.
gwpercle
Member
I wish somebody would shoot something with anything....
A water filled jug or ballistic gel block or box of soaked newsprint !
Shoot something with the new and improved load so we can see what is going to happen.....the suspense is getting me !
A water filled jug or ballistic gel block or box of soaked newsprint !
Shoot something with the new and improved load so we can see what is going to happen.....the suspense is getting me !
Awww, Joe. Don't let it bother ya. It's only pure physics. Do all the work..do all the math..And when all is said and done..It won't happen. I was talking to a fellow at the gun show the other day. He told me he used to carry a 10mm semi auto up in B'ar country. I commended him on carrying something worthwhile. It is the only mainstream semi auto for that purpose. He then told me he went back to a 44 mag revolver. He said he had more bang for the buck...but making a 9 perform like 45 sounds good but just won't ever do it. using the large bullet reduces speed mag primers might raise pressures even more. Trimming the meplat and hollowpointing reduces the weight and bumping the 45 to +P makes it all irrelevant..again.Yes I have a 9 or two..my wife carries a 9 when she is out and about. If I didn't think it was a useful round I wouldn't let her carry it. With such a tiny case the 9 can't do what or be made to do what a 45 can do or be made to do. Fun to try....less'n we blow up a gun. Speaking of which..fellow showed me a blown up Python the other day. 1/2 a cylinder was left and the top strap was gone. Reload with 296..1st round through the gun
OP
I am making bullets.....
I'm making the bullets right now. I just stopped to double check my reloading data. I decided to use magnum primers and drop the loads back .2 grains. While I'm doing this, I'm thinking when this week I can get out to the range. I have a Chrono but I don't have ballistics gel (yet) and I'll have to find something semi solid to shoot. However, I have not yet been able to modify the bullets to the flat nose hollow point that I'm thinking of, because the bullets are so dam hard!!!
I'll just have to do the best I can. I concede on one point. I doubt that I'll be able to do a round any heavier than the 165 grain. The case capacity does seem to be the limiting factor. I would still like to theoretically figure out IF a heavier bullet would could fit the action of a 9mm and still attain the required velocity.
You guys have got me on the .40 being probably better at what I'm proposing performance wise. I like 9mms for many reasons and I'm going to test the water to milk what can out of a 9mm.
Disclaimer: At NO time during this discussion did I suggest that any bullet design could replace placement as the most important factor in an SD situation. Getting better placement is up to the individual learning and practicing. I'm working on a hardware problem.
I was working on triple taps (about 5 sets) the other day at five yards with my new Sig bringing the gun up from the bench height. Starting shooting while trying to find the front sight is a real trip. Though my patterns were loose, all shots went in the 'dead zone', so I hope I can improve on placement and distance with practice.
I'm making the bullets right now. I just stopped to double check my reloading data. I decided to use magnum primers and drop the loads back .2 grains. While I'm doing this, I'm thinking when this week I can get out to the range. I have a Chrono but I don't have ballistics gel (yet) and I'll have to find something semi solid to shoot. However, I have not yet been able to modify the bullets to the flat nose hollow point that I'm thinking of, because the bullets are so dam hard!!!
I'll just have to do the best I can. I concede on one point. I doubt that I'll be able to do a round any heavier than the 165 grain. The case capacity does seem to be the limiting factor. I would still like to theoretically figure out IF a heavier bullet would could fit the action of a 9mm and still attain the required velocity.
You guys have got me on the .40 being probably better at what I'm proposing performance wise. I like 9mms for many reasons and I'm going to test the water to milk what can out of a 9mm.
Disclaimer: At NO time during this discussion did I suggest that any bullet design could replace placement as the most important factor in an SD situation. Getting better placement is up to the individual learning and practicing. I'm working on a hardware problem.
I was working on triple taps (about 5 sets) the other day at five yards with my new Sig bringing the gun up from the bench height. Starting shooting while trying to find the front sight is a real trip. Though my patterns were loose, all shots went in the 'dead zone', so I hope I can improve on placement and distance with practice.
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