FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45

[bronco45]

What about recoil, one of the advantages to 9 is lighter recoil. Based partly on bullet weight. Drive the weight and velocity and pressure up, recoil impulse will dramatically change. Just shoot a 40 S&W and have heavier bullet and velocity without god awful pressure peaks.

 

[rwsmith]

Help me out with a soft target....

What about recoil, one of the advantages to 9 is lighter recoil. Based partly on bullet weight. Drive the weight and velocity and pressure up, recoil impulse will dramatically change. Just shoot a 40 S&W and have heavier bullet and velocity without god awful pressure peaks.

The velocity is lower than typical 9mm rounds. I don't expect the recoil to be that much different. You guys do have a point with using a .40, it's just that I want to do it with a 9mm because they are accepted as a standard round everywhere, even by me.


Now I need help. This is progressing much faster than I thought it would. Since I don't have means of making gelatin (at all, must less quickly) I need a target I can take to the range that will at least retain the rounds for inspection.

I was thinking plastic buckets full of building sand and maybe some water jugs set in a line. Does anybody have better ideas?

Ok, Here are the rounds I've made for velocity testing. They progress from 3.5 grain of Power Pistol to 4.3 grains. OAL is 1.15". (Sounds like a good start) I'm going to have to plunk test these but they look fine.


I managed to start to modify some of the bullets by putting them in a bench vise (!). They have an app. 1/4" meplat. I will center punch, drill a HP and score the plating. (NICE plating on those Xtreme bullets). The dia. of the bullet shank is still .355". An added plus of having a meplat is that now the bullets are .685" long instead of .734". As I get into this I will have a little more headroom on the OAL. One problem is that I don't want to lose much weight and end up with a 158 gr HP. So I'll have to be skimpy on how much I drill out, which will also affect terminal ballistic performance. I wonder if I can find some 165 gr. HP bullets that are already formed???? Anyway, here they are:


PS: The noses of the finished rounds are flat because I used a flat seating punch to try to start getting a little meplat. Like I said, these goobers are hard as a brickbat.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I know you have the 9mm Xtreme 165gr plated FN bullets and plan to modify them but.....

if you can live with a factory 158gr bullet with a .357 dia. there
are .38 cal. JHP bullets out there, and save a lot of labor and time.

If "Big" is what you need, carry on.

 

[Fred_G]

38 Super seems to be what you seek.

 

[rwsmith]

Will they need?

I know you have the 9mm Xtreme 165gr plated FN bullets and plan to modify them but.....

if you can live with a factory 158gr bullet with a .357 dia. there
are .38 cal. JHP bullets out there, and save a lot of labor and time.

If "Big" is what you need, carry on.

That's a great idea. Wouldn't the bullets need sizing? I guess 'big' is what I'm going for in stretching the 9mm bullet weight to the max while still retaining adequate velocity. I 'theorized' that the bullet could get even heavier, but the 165 gr. are the closest thing available.

Oh, actually the bullets are RN. Yeah, it's gonna take some work, but I'm treating this like a long term project and 'curious minds want to know'.

 

[caleb4387]

It's hard to believe that anyone who is a serious handgunner
still wants to argue the supposed vast superiority of the 230
FMJ .45 at the lumbering velocity of 830 fps over a warm 124
gr 9mm at 1200 fps. Numerous tests, including real world
shooting results indicate that there is little difference between
the two. So you hear and read all the time "where people say"
fill in the blank space here. Where you're mistaken here is in
the quality of your reading material. What isn't nonsense? The
9mm is the NATO handgun round and is likely to be so for
some time to come. Shot placement and penetration trumps
bullet dia 100% of the time. Shoot what you like and shoot
well.

I'd rather have a lumbering 147 grain 9mm

 

[OFT II]

Any further questions?

That looks like a Jug Johnson Special.

 

[rwsmith]

Now that's funny......

That looks like a Jug Johnson Special.

The old "Delta Rocket System" approach.

 

[rwsmith]

You see my point.....

I'd rather have a lumbering 147 grain 9mm

If a lumbering 147 gr 9mm is good, maybe a 165 grain or bigger would lumber along in a good velocity range.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Well with the Xtreme bullet being just plated..............

you might end up with a lead tipped bullet when it is all done with ?
If the lead is soft enough, it might even expand....................

Hope to see some wet news paper test soon.....
or water bottles.

 

[rwsmith]

That would be like carryng....

38 Super seems to be what you seek.

That would be like carrying a semi automatic .357 magnum. Good iidea.

 

[Fred_G]

That would be like carrying a semi automatic .357 magnum. Good iidea.

It is what I carry.

 

[franzas]

165 gr hollow point lead bullets 38 .357 [38-165-hp-640-358] - $12.43 : GT Bullets!, Fine Hand Cast Lead Bullets
160gr LSWC Hollow Point 38-429 Keith Design [38-429-160--HP-358] - $12.26 : GT Bullets!, Fine Hand Cast Lead Bullets

Take these bullets and resize them to .356 (or order them sized to .356) and load them in a 9mm. The alloy is on the harder side, like 10 BHN (hardcasts are usually 15-22).

I'm interested in where this project goes. Like the OP, I am also an engineer. I love reading and learning about all things reloading. Oh, and good data!

 

[rwsmith]

I'll see soon....

Well with the Xtreme bullet being just plated..............

you might end up with a lead tipped bullet when it is all done with ?
If the lead is soft enough, it might even expand....................

Hope to see some wet news paper test soon.....
or water bottles.

I'll be anxious myself, the lead will show in the drilled hole for sure. Maybe it will work enough to give us an idea even if they are 18 brinell.

I would think that around 12 brinell would be soft enough for 'mushrooming'. Do any of you casters have any ideas about that?

If this pans out I'll probably move to Franzas (tip of the hat) clue with the GT bullets. Some outfits will do some custom work, especially if you order a large enough quantity.

Of course in the future I may just get into casting, but that's putting the unpropelled wheeled conveyance in front of the equine animal.

 

[rwsmith]

Ok, it's late but.....

...let me throw a few things on here. I was thinking about going to the range tomorrow, but that may be ambitious. The easiest media for me to use instead of gelatin would be milk jugs, which I have and can use, but only once, or twice if the first shot is high.

Bags of sand? Flour? Wet Flour?, Wallboard compound? pillows? What can take several shots at without going to pieces. If I can find paper, and wet it, that would probably be the most stable. I just want to make sure that I retain the bullet and get some number for penetration. Looking at the dum dums I wonder if I should at least drive a nail or something into the top of the bullet to simulate a HP?

I 'prepared' a few HP bullets from the 165 grain plated (see picture) but on weighing found that drilling a HP made the bullets weigh around 153 grains. So I flattened another batch and made 'dum dums' out of them, so the 165 gr weight is retained. I feel I mutilated them more than 'modified' them, but neither my hands or my eyes work as well as they used to. Anyway, I'm going to select a few of these to actually fire into the media.

 

[Forrest r]

I like to use bundles of wet newspaper as a test medium. Cheap & easy, simply tape together 12" bundles of newspaper and put them in a cooler. Then fill the cooler with water and take the cooler to the range. Pull a bundle out of the cooler and set it up and shoot.

I like to let the bundles sit over night so they are evenly/completely soaked.

They say shooting into wet bundles of paper is = to 1 1/2 times the penetration of 10% gelatin. While people could and will argue this till the cows come home and then back out again. If you use a known bullet/load as a test you will have an idea on how to rate your findings in the newspaper bundles.

Simple things like denim or leather + tee-shirt material can be placed over the bundles. Bones can easily be placed at different depths, apples paced in the center of a 12" bundle, etc.

The other thing I like about using the wet newspaper bundles is that the layers are easily peeled back and measured. You might consider making some bundles and using some 230gr 45acp ball ammo and some 9mm xtp's and use that data as a base line to compare everything else to. There's tons of data/gel tests on both bullets out there. Chronograph your loads, measure the depths of the 9mm xtp's/45 ball and come up with a formula (example: 1" of wet paper ='s 1.3" of gelatin). And use that for all your testing.

 

[S&W HE]

I wish somebody would shoot something with anything.... /QUOTE]

How about something that bleeds?

Many years ago I lived out of town in an area surrounded by jack rabbits. This provided an excellent opportunity to test factory and hand loaded ammo from handguns and rifles.

Here's my summary of experiences with three handgun cartridges:

The 9x19mm rounds (including HPs) never stopped one unless it was a head shot. I believe they were all killed with solid body hits but they didn't know it and ran far before dying.

About 20% of the time body shots with 230 grain GI round ball 45 ACP would bowl them over and they would get up and run a ways to die.
Body shots with a 200 H&G #68 bullet at 950 fps and Sierra's 185 grain at 1000 fps were impressive.

Any 357 mag load proved devastating.

I realize these results may be sacrilege for some 9x19mm proponents but it is what happened with the ammo available at the time.

 

[Nevada Ed]

GT said they could size the 38 cal. 130gr lead HP down to..........

.356 or .357 dia. if needed.

They might do the same with their lead 160gr bullet if asked?
Being a 2-2-X lead mix, it should mushroom..........
if you want a lead bullet.

At under 900fps I don't think it really matters.

 

[S&W HE]

That looks like a Jug Johnson Special.

Nice job! That's tough to do and not split the brass.

I speak from experience after building 40/9mm, 45/40 and 45/38 rounds.

 

[rwsmith]

I've got data! Range Report.....

Sorry I've been out of touch but my internet was down for the fourth time in four months. The cable to my house keeps getting cut up or chewed by something.

Ok, I'm going to post this in sections and I have pictures, too.


Ballistcs test/Range report concerning "How to make a 9mm act like a .45".

Last night I looked to find who carried newsprint that I could wet and shoot through. On the way to Boggy Head Rifle Range (50 min. drive) I stopped by Office Depot to pick up some newsprint. Like everything else, you have to order it. So I asked the girl for the cheapest paper they had and got a box of copy paper for $30, which was more than I was hoping to spend but it was all set up and had a friend with me and I wanted to get some testing done. Weather conditions were PERFECT. Clear and sunny.

I had my chrono (karma from a member here) and using a Kel Tec P11 (3.1" barrel, the shortest I had), began shootng. Let me reiterate. These bullest were 29 brin. and I didn't expect to get much expansion out of them, even with my "jhp modifications", Range was between 10 and 15', a little closer than usual because I wanted my shots to be good with the Kel Tek, which is much harder to shoot as distance is increased.
Velocity Testing (fps):

First string with 3.5 grains powder 737, 716, 724
Second string with 3.7 grains powder 754, 756, 745
Third Stting with 3.9 grains of powder 786, 751, 753
Fourth String with 4.1 grains of powder Fail, 819, 827
Fifth String with 4.3 grains of powder 799, 817, 813

The target velocity wasn't reached with this load, but it close enough that by tweaking the load and using a longer barreled gun I think the goal is attainabled. With the flattened noses Accurate #7 may be able to used.

I had some problems in shooting the strings. I had a series of light strikes, some of which looked like they should have fired. I've never run into that problem with the Kel tec before, but of course when I NEED it to work..... Anyway, some of the test ammo I made was ruined but I'll try them later in a different gun to determine the problem. Also, the I loaded them to a max OAL of 1.155" when the maximum OAL for the 9mm Luger is 1.169". So I had some feeding problems. (Geez). But I did succeed in get the velocity testing done.

More to come.......