Finally chronographed the Herco 6gr 158gr LSWC 38spl load.

[serger]

Went out Friday between storms to chrony my buds 5gr Red Dot Jeff Cooper load,
but that's another story.

I took some of my Herco loads to see what they actually do. Been shooting them
about 10 years now and finally got to see 'em in action. The bullets I used
were the last of the ones I tumble lubed prior to going with powder coating.

Here's the results of the 5 shot strings:

2" 966fps SD 15.41
3" 1026fps SD 16.88
4" 1077fps SD 15.44

Something I also noted was the sooting was way down. I'm pretty sure it
was because I used a lot heavier crimp than I usually do because of
wanting to use the 2" revolver.

I found this load years ago and now can't find the book I got it out of.
The nearest I can now find is from Sierra's 1978 2nd Edition on page 311.
That one is for the 158gr JSP. It's the one in the middle of the scan and the
second slowest load out of the 6" Colt Trooper they used with that jacketed bullet
rated at 800fps.

So based on todays lawyer proofing, do you consider this a +P lead bullet load?
If I used the same load with a jacketed bullet and got their numbers (800 fps or so)
would that one be a standard load?

I'm asking for my friend Karen. She needs to know.

 

[alwslate]

Lawyer proofing? Surely you're not buying into the often repeated nonsense about making deadly handloads for self defense and getting railroaded by the mythical "smart prosecutor". Load and shoot the loads that work for you in your guns.

 

[tominboise]

No, I think you're fine. Lead bullets have much less friction than jacketed bullets, hence the higher velocities, typically.

 

[DWalt]

The only problem with pushing lead bullets much beyond a MV of 1000 ft/sec is barrel leading. Lead bullets with gas checks or jacketed bullets can be pushed faster without leading. For otherwise identical loads, lead bullets will always have a somewhat higher MV because lead has less barrel friction than jackets. I remember once reading a very comprehensive article in which someone tested that out in several different calibers. Herco is pretty decent for heavy .38 Special loads. Some years ago I used it, but not recently. I think I still have about half a pound of Herco hidden away somewhere. I probably should use it.

 

[rockquarry]

Speer #11 (more than thirty years ago) shows 5.1 grs. Herco as max. with a 158 cast SWC, MV of 936 from a 6" revolver barrel. Whether that charge is listed as max because of pressure or because it's a swaged lead bullet subject to leading, I don't know, but would suspect the latter as Speer manuals often mention this with lead bullet load data (or they used to).

However, with a 158 gr. jacketed Speer bullet they list a max +P load of 6 grs. Herco with approximately the same MV in the same revolver as the 5.1 gr. load with the swaged 158 bullet.

 

[alwslate]

Realize that an 800 FPS load with a 158 gr jacketed bullet out of a 6" revolver is going to be much slower out of 4" or shorter barrels and you might get to point of sticking a bullet in the barrel of a 2 or 3" revolver. Speer no longer lists any loads with 158 gr jacketed bullets for the 38spl. A 158 gr jacketed bullet at low velocity isn't going to expand anyway unless it misses your perp and hits a brick wall. Your Herco loads seem to be working well if you have used them for ten years and while at +P level they are very unlikely to actually exceed the 20,000 max for +P loads. Most manuals rarely list loads for +P that go any higher than about 17,300 psi which is barely above std. pressure.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I have one manual that I trust and it has a K frame with a 158 gr JHP
using a maximum load at 6.8 grs at 950 fps, with Herco powder.

However you should back off some if you try it in a light J frame for
800 to 850fps if a steel frame.

 

[cowboy4evr]

Everyone has the own philosophy about the max velocity lead bullets can be shot w/o leading a barrel . I will tell you that I routinely shoot my own cast plain base bullets in my revolvers sometimes fast , w/o leading the barrel . My favorite design is Accurate molds plain base version of the lyman 358156 (2 crimp grooves) . I routinely load either 14.4 grs of 2400 or 15.5 grs of H110 . My barrels are very clean after shooting several boxes . Most of my Smiths in 357 / 41 mag / 44 mag required opening up the cylinder throats to the proper size and fire lap the barrels to remove the " notorious " tight spot where the barrel threaded onto the frame .
I recently had the good fortune to get a stainless Ruger Security Six in 4" . Whoever built that one did a great job as the cylinder throats were perfect and NO tight spot where the barrel threaded onto the frame . I have 3 rugers , 357 , 41 magnum and 45 colt . They all have been perfect . I size my bullets in 357 , .359 and use LBT'S soft blue lube . Maybe I'm just lucky ! Regards Paul

 

[rockquarry]

Everyone has the own philosophy about the max velocity lead bullets can be shot w/o leading a barrel . I will tell you that I routinely shoot my own cast plain base bullets in my revolvers sometimes fast , w/o leading the barrel . My favorite design is Accurate molds plain base version of the lyman 358156 (2 crimp grooves) . I routinely load either 14.4 grs of 2400 or 15.5 grs of H110 . My barrels are very clean after shooting several boxes . Most of my Smiths in 357 / 41 mag / 44 mag required opening up the cylinder throats to the proper size and fire lap the barrels to remove the " notorious " tight spot where the barrel threaded onto the frame .
I recently had the good fortune to get a stainless Ruger Security Six in 4" . Whoever built that one did a great job as the cylinder throats were perfect and NO tight spot where the barrel threaded onto the frame . I have 3 rugers , 357 , 41 magnum and 45 colt . They all have been perfect . I size my bullets in 357 , .359 and use LBT'S soft blue lube . Maybe I'm just lucky ! Regards Paul

You're right and I agree, but many don't cast and they're at the mercy of commercial casters. Commercial cast bullets may not be the right size or may be cast of the wrong alloy for the intended load; they may shoot poorly and lead the bore.

As experienced casters well know, with any handgun cartridge, there is absolutely no advantage to using a plated or jacketed bullet over a cast bullet that fits and is of the right alloy for the load.

 

[ddixie884]

I'm glad to see someone else using 6gr of herco with a 158-160gr swc cast. I was using it and posting on the Cast Boolit forum and getting a pretty hard time about overloading. Quick load shows an overload and Larry Gibson fired some in a Contender with a pressure trace set-up on it and showed that with 162gr swc at 1.465"oal gave 19,100psi with 5.4gr Herco, 23,000psi with 5.7gr, 23,200 with 6.0gr with a very high secondary spike in the pressure trace and 25,200psi with 6.3gr. I shot all of the 5.4 to 6.3gr loads in my M-15-3 S&W and a .38spl LCR with normal extraction with a left thumb. I was not using an extreme crimp and got a little goo on the case mouths from lube and soot. I happen to have this info and am sharing it freely with you with no recommendation or caveats. My thread is entitled; "Pushing the envelope with Herco in the .38spl+P"

 

[alwslate]

Is your 162 gr SWC the Lyman 356446? I had some that I bought at a gun show years ago. It's a two lube groove flat base design. Or do your bullets have a gas check? All SWCs are not the same. The Magma 158 gr SWCs that many buy and use today have one lube groove and a bevel base. Mine actually weigh only 155-156 grs on my Redding scale. It's not surprising that a load with a Magna bullet that produces 20,000 psi or less might generate 23,000 psi with your bullets. As to that being an overload, now that we now know your model 15 has the same cyl as a model 19 then an overload it isn't. It really just comes down to what you like to shoot. The two groove Lyman bullet is going to reduce air space in the case and raise pressure as will a gas check bullet. Swaged bullets also require more pressure to get the same velocity as a hard alloy cast bullet.

 

[ddixie884]

The bullet Larry used was a Lee plain base tumble lube and he was crimping in the top lube groove which would be lower and give more air space in the case oal 1.465". I usually use the machine cast swcbb sold by commercial sales folks. Lately I have been using Rim Rock bullets since they offer free ship on $130.00 orders and offer several different calibers and style of bullets. I feel Larry tried to give me a realistic idea of what I can expect from my hand loads. He also recently pressure tested some of my handloads with the Speer 135gr GDHPSB bullets on top of 6gr VV340 at 18,600psi and 7.5gr VV3N37 at 20,000 psi. as well as Rim Rock 158gr swcbb on VV340; 6gr at 21,900psi, 6.3gr at 23,200psi and 6.5gr at 26,000psi. The RR bullet gives oal of 1.500". I have loaded and fired quite a few of theese and have a few hundred loaded and put back because they shoot so clean and leave little residue..........