Finally found another S&W 4516

[IRONVIC52]

Been looking for a long time for a nice, clean 4516 and finally found a dash 1 last week. Happened on the same day I sold a bunch of books from my library of maritime books and was flush with cash for the first time in quite a while. Serendipity I guess...

A few years back I had a 4516 and really liked it, but like most gun traders, I just had to have something else (I think it was a SIG P220) and traded off the good little gun. Other than my sale of a very cool S&W Model 52, it is one of the few trades I have regretted.

My 4516-1 looks almost NIB save for some light abrasions to the frosty finish on the left side frame around the take-down lever. They're so darn easy to remove with just fingers, I just don't understand why so many shooters feel they need a pry bar to lift the thing out of the retainer hole in the slide-thankfully the previous owner didn't use a screwdriver blade! That said, this is a pretty nice gun.

Other than the very light abrasions mentioned, the finish is flawless and the slide wears Novak 3-dot sights. The barrel is bright and shiny and had only a slight streaking of lead in the grooves from firing cast bullets. And it passed my "4516 test" of being able to chamber empty .45 brass via the magazine. This it does with aplomb, so it should feed just about anything out there.

I have an e-mail out to S&W CSR for info on cost to replace springs and detail strip cleaning as well as a thorough safety check-up. Hopefully, they'll be able to answer a few questions without me having to buy a letter.

The the gun's original box shows it as a special order in the "TED" serial number series, with the Spec. Ord. features code "FS AMSF" I assume the FS means frosted stainless (bead blasted) finish, but the "AMSF" has me stumped.

This pistol also has a spur hammer and it looks like it may be factory installed, maybe the customer service people can shed some light on this issue as I was under the impression that all 4516s shipped with bobbed hammers. In any event I kind of like the spur hammer and might just leave it as-is.

I am very happy to have found this gun, it's been a long search and to find one in excellent condition with two yellow follower mags and original box is icing on the cake. The price on consignment was 475 bucks, marked down from the original asking price of $625, which would have been way too much IMO.

 

[timn8er]

Congratulations! 4516-1's are great pistols. I enjoy mine a lot!

 

[j38]

Sounds like a nice one, .. we'll look forward to pictures. I also had one once and let it slip away - for a reason I can't even remember. I do remember how well I was able to shoot that gun. Congrats,

Jerry

 

[kcode]

As for the options "FS AMSF", the FS is for Stainless Frame, the AMSF is ambidextrous safety.

 

[scwv67]

Congrats on your purchase!

 

[BMCM]

Nice score, congratulations. The dash1 is one of my all time favorites and currently my go too CCW. Coincidentally, just so happens mine is a TED prefix too. Great find, enjoy!

Cheers
Bill

 

[03Fatboy]

Sending it to S&W means you will likely be without it for 6-8 months. I think you can do all that is needed (springs, cleaning and grease) without sending it to them. Nice score!

 

[IRONVIC52]

Sending it to S&W means you will likely be without it for 6-8 months. I think you can do all that is needed (springs, cleaning and grease) without sending it to them. Nice score!

Hiya, 03Fatboy:

You have a good point there, I didn't realize they were that far back on service orders. Should have got a clue when the website said there were very long waits on CSRs actually answering the phones due to heavy call loads.

I got my maintenance books, I got my how-to videos, might as well do it myself!

 

[IRONVIC52]

As for the options "FS AMSF", the FS is for Stainless Frame, the AMSF is ambidextrous safety.

Thanks, Kcode, you broke the code!

 

[WHS 5906]

I have TED 56xx. Great gun.

 

[Dave Nash]

"IRONVIC52"

It has been sometime since I have posted here (perhaps February of this year) and I have only recently been able to start reading threads that interest me again, so I hope I am not too rusty here in making these comments.

Without wanting to sound like so many of the folks on this site who demand photos of everything that comes along, I would suggest that perhaps (and only perhaps) a few shots (from different angles) of the spur (type) hammer your gun employs, might allow (emphasize "might") some of the people here to help you in determining the validity of the spur-type hammer, which you feel "looks like it may be factory installed".

A clear, large format (that is, "readable") picture of the label on the end of the box could be helpful in that regard too (redact as much of the Serial Number as you feel necessary or comfortable with). It might also help clear up a number of other minor matters as well.

Here's what I am thinking on both points.

You are right in your "impression that all 4516's shipped with bobbed hammers" for at least most of them that I am aware of did but knowing the factory's potential for shipping a "group" of guns to an agency that could differ from "standard" if the price were right or the order was important, this could be a "special" gun. (There is also the possibility that it was built up for someone important or who just knew how to "ask" for something like this.)

But before you get too excited about that, more than likely, somebody just switched the spurless hammer out to more conventional spur type; which is not a bad idea actually for if you either prefer, or must use, a holster that uses a conventional thumb break and retention strap, if it is designed to keep the gun in place by engaging the hammer spur (as most of them are), you have to have a spur there for it to do so.

So the pictures of it might help people here tell you at least if the hammer shown is right for the period your gun may stem from. But remember, no matter how much people here like to extrapolate unknown ship dates from known ones, you'll never know for sure when the gun left the factory unless you get a letter or, in some cases, ask the folks in Customer Service, which I suggest you do the next time you reach out to them. Even then, however, that "period" is often hard to determine as well for a gun can be "made" but then sit around the plant, somebody's office, or even out in the field, for a long time before it is ever "shipped" off the factory books to some legal recipient (which is what the "ship date" actually reflects).

Still, it's worth a shot.

Just be aware that while those images might eliminate some possibilities, they still won't tell you if it is a "factory" installed option. And even a factory letter might not do that for if it was installed as a favor back then within the factory itself (especially after the fact, say in the Repair Shop within the Customer Service Department or even a few blocks away at the Armorer's School within the S&W Academy), it probably won't show up at all. More than likely (again, remember this is Smith & Wesson) the only way it might show up, is if it was ordered and built that way and you are lucky enough to find that the records captured that fact.

By the way, and I don't mean to be insulting, but as I remember it, the hammer isn't quite a drop in part but even back in the late 80's and early 90's when things weren't always as "interchangeable" as they were supposed to be, a hammer change like this wouldn't have been a big deal and externally there would have been no visible or noticeable alterations or modifications required.

But back to the gun possibly being ordered that way, that label picture could be helpful for it might say something about it. However, once again, I caution you for in your mention of "The the (sic) gun's original box shows it as a special order in the "TED" serial number series, with the Spec. Ord. features code 'FS AMSF'…", I think that you might be misreading the fields; as on their face, neither the "TED" prefix or the "FS AMSF" abbreviations indicate anything unusual for this model.

And I am not saying that "kcode" is wrong here (your remark: "Thanks, Kcode, you broke the code!" about his remark: "As for the options "FS AMSF", the FS is for Stainless Frame, the AMSF is ambidextrous safety.") but while some sources point out that the factory used "FS" in some "publications" as an indicator of a "Stainless Frame", in a label-based application like this during the late 80's – early 90's time frame we are more than likely discussing here, it was probably used to designate the "Fixed Sights" on your gun just as the "AMSF" does, in fact, refer to the "Ambidextrous Safety".

For while both of those were standard features on the gun (and to be honest neither Adjustable Sights nor a Single-Sided Safety were offered as cataloged options at the time; although at a later point, Night Sights were), this practice of listing everything (most applicable things) on that label maintained a consistency throughout the line so that a counterperson in a store could look at the boxes sitting on a shelf, and rather than needing to know each and every SKU at the time, could pull the right gun for their customer merely by reading the features (standard or not).

Hope this helps and hope you enjoy the gun. They were vastly underrated at the time yours was probably made. People really didn't see their advantages back in the 90's. They also didn't trust them (Colt Officer's Models were notoriously spotty performers) and rumors about the Smith's abounded (and still do from what I often read here on this site) and while there were some issues with these models on a gun-by-gun basis early on (as I stated above, consistency and interchangeability wasn't really advanced at S&W until several years into the decade), most of them performed very well.

They're generally great shooters and if the law allows, great guns to carry as well. A little heavy for some folks but nothing one can't get used to easily and that little bit of extra weight helps some people in terms of controllability.

Looks like you made a good choice.

 

[IRONVIC52]

"IRONVIC52"

It has been sometime since I have posted here (perhaps February of this year) and I have only recently been able to start reading threads that interest me again, so I hope I am not too rusty here in making these comments.

Without wanting to sound like so many of the folks on this site who demand photos of everything that comes along, I would suggest that perhaps (and only perhaps) a few shots (from different angles) of the spur (type) hammer your gun employs, might allow (emphasize "might") some of the people here to help you in determining the validity of the spur-type hammer, which you feel "looks like it may be factory installed".

A clear, large format (that is, "readable") picture of the label on the end of the box could be helpful in that regard too (redact as much of the Serial Number as you feel necessary or comfortable with). It might also help clear up a number of other minor matters as well.

Here's what I am thinking on both points.

You are right in your "impression that all 4516's shipped with bobbed hammers" for at least most of them that I am aware of did but knowing the factory's potential for shipping a "group" of guns to an agency that could differ from "standard" if the price were right or the order was important, this could be a "special" gun. (There is also the possibility that it was built up for someone important or who just knew how to "ask" for something like this.)

But before you get too excited about that, more than likely, somebody just switched the spurless hammer out to more conventional spur type; which is not a bad idea actually for if you either prefer, or must use, a holster that uses a conventional thumb break and retention strap, if it is designed to keep the gun in place by engaging the hammer spur (as most of them are), you have to have a spur there for it to do so.

So the pictures of it might help people here tell you at least if the hammer shown is right for the period your gun may stem from. But remember, no matter how much people here like to extrapolate unknown ship dates from known ones, you'll never know for sure when the gun left the factory unless you get a letter or, in some cases, ask the folks in Customer Service, which I suggest you do the next time you reach out to them. Even then, however, that "period" is often hard to determine as well for a gun can be "made" but then sit around the plant, somebody's office, or even out in the field, for a long time before it is ever "shipped" off the factory books to some legal recipient (which is what the "ship date" actually reflects).

Still, it's worth a shot.

Just be aware that while those images might eliminate some possibilities, they still won't tell you if it is a "factory" installed option. And even a factory letter might not do that for if it was installed as a favor back then within the factory itself (especially after the fact, say in the Repair Shop within the Customer Service Department or even a few blocks away at the Armorer's School within the S&W Academy), it probably won't show up at all. More than likely (again, remember this is Smith & Wesson) the only way it might show up, is if it was ordered and built that way and you are lucky enough to find that the records captured that fact.

By the way, and I don't mean to be insulting, but as I remember it, the hammer isn't quite a drop in part but even back in the late 80's and early 90's when things weren't always as "interchangeable" as they were supposed to be, a hammer change like this wouldn't have been a big deal and externally there would have been no visible or noticeable alterations or modifications required.

But back to the gun possibly being ordered that way, that label picture could be helpful for it might say something about it. However, once again, I caution you for in your mention of "The the (sic) gun's original box shows it as a special order in the "TED" serial number series, with the Spec. Ord. features code 'FS AMSF'…", I think that you might be misreading the fields; as on their face, neither the "TED" prefix or the "FS AMSF" abbreviations indicate anything unusual for this model.

And I am not saying that "kcode" is wrong here (your remark: "Thanks, Kcode, you broke the code!" about his remark: "As for the options "FS AMSF", the FS is for Stainless Frame, the AMSF is ambidextrous safety.") but while some sources point out that the factory used "FS" in some "publications" as an indicator of a "Stainless Frame", in a label-based application like this during the late 80's – early 90's time frame we are more than likely discussing here, it was probably used to designate the "Fixed Sights" on your gun just as the "AMSF" does, in fact, refer to the "Ambidextrous Safety".

For while both of those were standard features on the gun (and to be honest neither Adjustable Sights nor a Single-Sided Safety were offered as cataloged options at the time; although at a later point, Night Sights were), this practice of listing everything (most applicable things) on that label maintained a consistency throughout the line so that a counterperson in a store could look at the boxes sitting on a shelf, and rather than needing to know each and every SKU at the time, could pull the right gun for their customer merely by reading the features (standard or not).

Hope this helps and hope you enjoy the gun. They were vastly underrated at the time yours was probably made. People really didn't see their advantages back in the 90's. They also didn't trust them (Colt Officer's Models were notoriously spotty performers) and rumors about the Smith's abounded (and still do from what I often read here on this site) and while there were some issues with these models on a gun-by-gun basis early on (as I stated above, consistency and interchangeability wasn't really advanced at S&W until several years into the decade), most of them performed very well.

They're generally great shooters and if the law allows, great guns to carry as well. A little heavy for some folks but nothing one can't get used to easily and that little bit of extra weight helps some people in terms of controllability.

Looks like you made a good choice.

I added a pic of the 4516 to my OP. I don't much care if the hammer was original or not, to me it "looks right" on this gun and it's a shooter and a carry gun. My last 4516 was a no dash model with the bobbed hammer and I always thought it would be very handy to add a spur hammer to it, but did not want to fit the thing myself.

Whoever might have fitted the spur hammer on this gun did a good job on it and I intend to keep it as-is. Because I have only seen 4516s in my area with the bobbed hammer,I made sure to test the cocked hammer for push off and inserted a pencil into the bore to make sure the firing pin would actuate on pulling the trigger (it did and "launched" the pencil) and the hammer block safety was operable and safe (it was-the hammer dropped and did not launch the pencil).

The box label does show a Special Order code in that field and I intend to go further with S&W customer service who sent me an email reply requesting a phone contact with me.

I have a nice leather holster with a retention strap that's made for the Sig P-226, but the 4516 fits perfectly in it and that will be my winter carry holster for the Smith if she acquits herself well in function and range testing. All in all, I really like this gun. We'll see how she does at the range in the next week or two. So far, the innards look good, no problems, so she should do alright. I'm reloading a batch of .45 ACP as we speak.