FINALLY! Got my 686... and a dinged up ego

[travo]

After a couple months on lay away, I headed down to the shop to get my 4" 686. This is a brand new gun, with the 7 shot cylinder. I havent shot in a very long time, and most all of my shooting has been with shotguns, on squirrel hunts. I decided to get a revolver because I figured it would be a nice piece for HD, & for plinking. Also because its a Smith, a good investment period... something that will likely outlast me.

At any rate, I ordered 300, 38sp lead SWCs from Georgia Arms. I wanted to order more, and I wanted to order some 357s, but money was an issue. I lacked the patience to wait another week to get good cleaning materials, so I bought a cheap (and it is cheap) Hoppes 38/357 cleaning kit, ran some patches thru the cylinder and bore, gave the moving parts a squirt of Rem Oil.

I belong to a small employees only private park that has a 2 bench range. It is really a rifle range, but I MacGyvered something to staple my targets to, and counted off about 25 yards. I took my time, checked my stance, and fired.... After a few cylinders I was pretty demoralized. I wasnt shooting anywhere NEAR what I thought I would be. I didnt expect a ton of accuracy, but I did expect some consistency.

So I defensively rationalize "What am I going to be shooting at, that is 25 yards away anyhow.... Lets be reasonable... lets move it in." At 10 yards, it was a hair better, but still a kick in the ***. I was pretty disappointed.

At the end of the day, I put 100 rounds through the revolver. I would have put more through, but I didnt want to waste my ammo before I had more on the way, and some advice. I also work on a PC all day, and there was a hint of fatigue in my shooting hand. The last 50 or so shots, I was trying harder to pace myself, and focus on what I was doing... The pull, the action of the hammer cycling, the level of tension, my reaction when the action "broke", if I was blinking or flinching.... etc.

I think my best bet would be to find an experienced shooting buddy to hit the range with... On the way out of the valley, I passed a sign for an NRA instructor offering handgun safety classes. I have intended to take a class, to make certain I am being as safe as I can be. I got the guys # off his sign, and plan on calling him to see if he could coach me.

I wanted to take a second to give props to Georgia Arms. I was on the prowl for mass cheap ammo, and it seemed that a lot of people had good things to say about them... I have exchanged several emails with GA, with some extremely noob questions, and they were very helpful. All of my questions had a quick turnaround time (email) and their delivery of my ammo was very fast. The packaging was minimal (ie, they didnt bulk up the box to charge me more on shipping) and (again) quick. Their fair pricing, and good service has won them a repeat customer. For the record, I am not in any way affiliated with these folks.

Anyhow, no real point in this post. I wanted to share what I thought was a fairly humorous (and sad) tale of my day at the range, and see if anyone had any suggestions on things that I maybe overlooking. I know that 100 rounds isnt much, but its a start!

 

[lebomm]

Travo;
Next time try some first-line ammo - see if your shooting doesn't improve.

Larry

 

[LazyKB]

I feel your pain. Of all the disciplines handguns are the most difficult to become proficient. Keep at it. No expert here but if you don't mind here is what I would do and do myself. Since you are good with a computer check out all the sites, handgun hunting, self defense, concealed carry etc. Read about grip, trigger pull, safety. Next dry fire, dry fire, dry fire. Concentrate when you do. Don't just pull the trigger. Notice where the front sight is when the trigger breaks. IT IS ALL ABOUT THE FRONT SIGHT. I know you said money is a concern but you might want to think about acquiring a .22. Lots of fun and shooting is a lot cheaper. Congratulations you have just discovered a whole new way to invest your time and money. New guns, holsters, reloading equipment the possibilities are endless.

 

[C/O]

I agree dry fire a lot, and don't forget the adjustable sights. You can adjust them to suit you. They don't always come out of the factory sighted in for the end user.

 

[Roadranger]

Travo, you may have been expecting too much on the first time out. You stated that your only experience was with a shotgun. Handgun shooting skills is not something you glean overnight. Having taught LE rookies, I can tell you it takes more that 100 rounds and one outing. Police cadets spend hundreds of hours on firearms training and even after that some still can't qualify. First of all 25 yards is way to far to learn to shoot a handgun, it's the maximum distance cops shoot at. Start at about 10 feet and go from there. If at all possible, I would beg, borrow, or acquire a .22 handgun to learn with, a K-frame S&W would be ideal, and go from there. I'm pretty sure your M686 will put seven touching if you can drive it. Hang in there. BTW, I'm sure your computor skills far exceed mine. Bob!

 

[rondo]

The best $7 you'll ever spend: Pistol Shooters Treasury

Lots of great articles on how to shoot a pistol from old-school pros, with detailed talks on sight picture and trigger control. I refer to my copy whenever I need a lesson on the fundamentals.

 

[fyimo]

Travo, you may have been expecting too much on the first time out. You stated that your only experience was with a shotgun. Handgun shooting skills is not something you glean overnight. Having taught LE rookies, I can tell you it takes more that 100 rounds and one outing. Police cadets spend hundreds of hours on firearms training and even after that some still can't qualify. First of all 25 yards is way to far to learn to shoot a handgun, it's the maximum distance cops shoot at. Start at about 10 feet and go from there. If at all possible, I would beg, borrow, or acquire a .22 handgun to learn with, a K-frame S&W would be ideal, and go from there. I'm pretty sure your M686 will put seven touching if you can drive it. Hang in there. BTW, I'm sure your computor skills far exceed mine. Bob!

+1 on what he said.

When I first started shooting handguns in the early 80's I also started with a 686. I belonged to an indoor range and starting shooting often and after a a few months I was shooting tight groups where I aimed. Two things happened and one was I became a better shooter and the trigger in the S&W smoothed out a lot after about 500 rounds.

 

[Len]

I've always felt that getting proficient with any firearm is similar to getting better with a musical instrument, or a sport, or training a dog...

As long as you don't start out with terrible habits [have someone with experience watch over your shoulder if you can], sheer repetition and consistent practice is always the key.

If you follow basic handgun procedure, you will simply be better at handgunning after 1000 rounds compared to your first 100.

Just give yourself some time.

Len

 

[crabbys44]

What's already been said is great advice. Before you go out to the range again try this:

Triple check that your weapon is unloaded and there is NO ammo in the same room. Tape a nickel on a safe wall (one that doesn't lead into an occupied area). You didn't specify if you were shooting double action or single. I'll assume double.

Concentrate on the front sight as you steadily press the trigger to the rear. When the hammer falls, see if the front sight moved from your target. If it went down, you developed a flinch and the best way to cure that is to continue the dry practice.

Once you are comfortable with the above, try this. Load some spent shells in with live rounds. Better yet have a partner do it if possible so you don't know which is which. When you "click" on the empty, see if your front sight moved. Concentrate on that trigger squeeze and let the shot surprise you. When you do fire a round, keep the trigger to the rear in recoil and get a second sight picture IMMEDIATELY before you reset the trigger (this is called follow through and will help you a lot to improve accuracy).

I t sounds like a lot, but it's very doable.

Have fun and stay safe!

 

[mtime7]

A shooting partner that can shoot better than you can help push you to shoot better.. Also I found that shooting at small objects really helped me to get better, try shooting at empty shotgun shell hulls at 10 yards. I saw an older gentlman drawing and firing at shotgun hulls at 5-10 yards one day and I started doing it myself, now I can draw and hit a hull at 15 yards on the first shot double action.. Also get a mod 18 if you can, shooting .22s is cheaper so you can make more trips to the range, I shoot at least on Fed bulk pack a month

 

[6pack]

Travo;
Next time try some first-line ammo - see if your shooting doesn't improve.

Larry

Nothing wrong with the ammo he was using.


Pretty obvious that he just needs some instruction, time to practice and realistic expecations....no different that the rest of us.

Travo, nice gun. Keep on working at it and things will develop nicely.

 

[kennyb]

+1 on all the advice that i see here...i would add..that gun has adjustable sights...i find they are never adjusted correctly from the factory..if they are out of adjustment...you could be hitting anywhere!

 

[Neumann]

From your description, it sounds like you are shooting double-action (the trigger pull cocks and fires the revolver). That's hard do and takes a lot of dry firing and range time. If you can hit a 10" circle at 7 yards (a paper plate) consistently, you are doing a good job with DA.

You will get much better accuracy shooting single-action (cock manually and fire). With coaching, you can learn to shoot a 4" circle at 25 yards, possibly much better. It's more fun, too. Magnum rounds pack a punch at both ends, and a SA grip style is less punishing than shooting DA.

Don't mess with the sights until you can shoot consistently. Sights are set up to cover the target, combat style, not the typical 6:00 hold for target. I have four Smiths, and all four were combat-accurate out of the box. Then, too, I had a lot of miles on other pistols up to that point.

If you shoot low, you are probably flinching or anticipating the recoil. Everybody does that at first. Get a coach, or shoot with somebody who knows what they're doing.

 

[RonS]

Practice, but only practice good habits. Lots of good books and videos out there plus you might find a good coach/teacher.

 

[TACC1]

FWIW, from a rank amateur, after about 500-600 dry-fires,
the action of my new 442 smoothed right up.
Seems like all the advice I get on the Forum is solid gold. These people have learned what they do over years of applying their
skills.
When you get your first acceptable target, (to you, anyway),
how about another post with pics of the gun, and the target?
I'm always fascinated by others firearms, and the story-line that goes
with it. Good shooting! TACC1

 

[Chuck Jones]

The best defensive pistol instructor I know starts people at 4 yards. There is no sense moving back until you can hit and know the fundamentals with confidence in your ability.

And that happens fastest right on the 4 yard line.

Draw and fire one, then draw and fire two. Then body shot, head shot. Then one handed strong hand, then one handed weak hand. Drawing and reloading, firing with one hand only and even weak handed, should become second nature.

When you can draw, fire, reload, chew up the middle of your target into one fist size hole, and your head shots are all in, then move back to 7 yards and repeat your success.

Then to back to 10 and repeat.

Simple as that.

/c

 

[brucev]

The best defensive pistol instructor I know starts people at 4 yards. There is no sense moving back until you can hit and know the fundamentals with confidence in your ability.

And that happens fastest right on the 4 yard line.

Draw and fire one, then draw and fire two. Then body shot, head shot. Then one handed strong hand, then one handed weak hand. Drawing and reloading, firing with one hand only and even weak handed, should become second nature.

When you can draw, fire, reload, chew up the middle of your target into one fist size hole, and your head shots are all in, then move back to 7 yards and repeat your success.

Then to back to 10 and repeat.

Simple as that.

/c

Correct. And just a suggestion for learning to shoot with some speed. Take a large piece of paper... like the size of a human shaped qualification target. Glue a strip of white paper 4" wide up the center of the target. Practice raising your revolver in line with the strip of paper. Place another strip at 90 degrees... so that they cross in the center. This was suggested to me by my brother. It helped. JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.

 

[scooter123]

This will probably run a bit long, however I'll do my best to keep it under 5000 characters.

First, you'll want to purchase TWO sets of Azoom snap caps, unfortunately you only get 6 to a set. These feature a hard urethane button in the primer pocket that cushions the firing pin strike. IMO if you don't use snap caps for dry firing, sooner or later you'll either break the firing pin, the pin that retains the firing pin in the frame, or possibly snap the spur off the hammer. As for why these are so critical, it WILL take THOUSANDS of trigger pulls to develop a good DA trigger stroke. BTW, you'll be a bit impressed by the price, those 2 sets of snap caps will cost between 35 and 40 dollars. However, IMO they are worth the cost considering the protection they provide to the firing mechanism.

Second, you'll want to place a quarter sized target about 10-15 feet away from somewhere that it will be convenient to practice dry firing the gun. I will also advise that you TRIPLE check the gun is loaded with snap caps before engaging in any dry fire practice and YOU DO THAT TRIPLE CHECK EVERY SINGLE TIME. Align your sights with that target and watch the sight alignment as you pull the trigger. The goal for dry firing is to obtain the least movement of the sights during the trigger stroke. To that end, EXPERIMENT with the placement of your fingertip on the trigger, what works well for me may not work well for you, you have to determine what works for you by experimenting. I'll also note that you won't ever completely eliminate the sights moving, however with practice you should be able to gain a trigger stroke that starts and ends with the sights aligned well on the target.

Now, about the DA trigger stroke. That should be one SINGLE complete motion without any stops and starts. Many shooters new to revolvers will "stage" the trigger by stopping a bit short of the release, re-align the sights, and then complete the trigger stroke. They do this because it takes a lot less practice to get acceptable accuracy, however it's not how you'll use a revolver in Combat and IMO it's cheating. Put in the time and effort to learn how to do it properly and you'll not only be a better shooter with a revolver, that trigger management skill will make you a better shooter with any firearm that uses a trigger activated by one finger.

As for how to start, start by pulling the trigger in SLOW MOTION and gradually increase the rate as your skills improve. Once you get to the point where you can run 6 pulls in about 4 seconds it's time to start doing some live fire practice. Unfortunately, dry firing doesn't do anything to teach you recoil management, which is another critical aspect in shooting a handgun.

Recoil management is the skill of CONSISTENTLY holding the gun during recoil. Hard as it may be to believe, not being consistent during recoil will effect accuracy. As for why, that barrel is in motion while the bullet is transitting the barrel. If you allow the muzzle to flip freely on one shot and hold the gun firmly on the next shot you'll probably see a 3-6 inch difference in the Point of Impact. If you want to learn how to shoot well in Combat type exercizes, Recoil Management means that you make a concerted effort to minimize the muzzle rise during recoil. Some Bullseye shooters will make very little effort to control the muzzle rise because it is somewhat easier to get consistent recoil management if you let the gun flip a bit "free". However, like "staging" the trigger, allowing the gun to be a bit "free" in recoil will greatly impede your peak firing rate, so it's not an adviseable practice for a gun you may use in Combat.

Now about accuracy goals. IMO if you can shoot at a 0.5 second split time while hitting 1 inch groups for every 10 feet to the target, your shooting well enough to do well in formal competitions. Quite simply, if you can shoot that fast and that tight, you are shooting superbly. BTW, that means a 7.5 inch group at 25 yards. If you cannot afford to practice at least once a week, and perhaps twice a week, a more reasonable expectation is 1.5-2 inches for every 10 feet to the target. Note, a shot timer is an excellent accessory to consider purchasing if you find you have about 150 dollars you can "spare". If you can't budget for a shot timer, have a friend time you for a full cylinder, with practice you'll find that 3.5 seconds is an achievable goal. I'll also note that when you start pushing to gain in speed, any misses means you need to reset to a lower rate at which you do NOT miss. The goal isn't to shoot as fast as you can pull the trigger, it's to shoot as fast as you can while scoring good hits on the target.

Sighting the gun. This should ALWAYS be done from a rested position, ideally while you are sitting in a chair at the shooting bench. I would also recomend that you use a sandbag to rest your hands on because constantly pounding the heel of your hand on a hard bench can start to hurt after a bit. In addition, you want to make sure that you DO NOT rest the barrel on anything when shooting from a bench rest. Your 686 has a solid one piece barrel and having it in contact with anything will cause the barrel to not "ring" consistently, that will cause group sizes to at least DOUBLE in size if not more. In addition, by supporting just the heels of your hands in the shooting grip, you'll be able to use recoil management skills that are a near duplicate to shooting offhand. This means that the sight picture you set from a rest will still be true when shooting offhand. I'll also note that when sighting you want to move the rear sight in the same direction as you want to move the Point of Impact. This means rear sight right, bullets shift right, rear sight up, bullets shift up.

Bore Transit Recoil. What this means is that the bullet is transitting the barrel while the barrel is moving in recoil. Because of this, you will find that HEAVIER bullets will shoot HIGHER than lighter bullets. As for why, at a specific pressure a heavier bullet will spend more time in the barrel, so the barrel will move more before that bullet exits the barrel. Note, due to the vast difference in power between the 38 spl. and the 357 Magnum, you'll find that you have to aim a lot lower with the Magnums than you might expect.

I would also recomend that the first time you try shooting some 357 Magnums that you place your target at least 12 inches lower than your 38 spl. targets at 30 feet just to avoid the possibility of throwing a round over the backstop or berm. I would also recomend that you only load one single 357 Magnum in the cylinder for that first shot. If you've never shot a 357 Magnum, the recoil will stun you. Since you've done a bit of shotgunning, it's probably similar to going from a 20 gage to a 10 gage shotgun with a really heavy load. If someone isn't prepared for the recoil of the 357 Magnum, it is possible to cause the gun to "double" fire. What happens is that in a slightly loose grip the gun will drive back into the palm, allow the trigger to reset, and that shooter thinking he may lose his grip on the gun, will then squeeze with all of his fingers and fire the gun a second time. Usually when this happens the barrel is pointing up for that second shot, possibly even back at the shooters head. BTW, the 460 and 500 Magnums are notorious for doing this even with somewhat experienced shooters, so with someone who has never fired any Magnum, it's best to load only one round the first time.

Finally, concerning the specific TYPE of rifling used in the barrel on your 686. S&W has recently been implementing a new method of rifling the barrels in some of their revolvers and my experience is that these new style barrels are NOT suitable for shooting with lead bullets. Fortunately, it's rather easy to spot this new type of rifling, if you take a toothpick and run in across the groove to the land you'll find that there is no sharp edge for that toothpick to catch on. In addition if you look down the bore with a penlight at the opposite end you'll see a surface finish that looks glass smooth. See the images posted below posted in the followng link. BTW, thank you Markush for posting those pics. I'll also note the his description of the new style rifling looking over polished and shot out is a pretty good description of how this new style rifling looks. However, I know from personal experience that this new type of rifling works very very well.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-smithing/190712-returned-service-i-need-some-help.html

Note, flawed barrel with older broached rifling. Notice the sharp corners at the lands and grooves. Also notice the slighly rough surface finish.

New style EDM machined rifling. Note the sharp corners at the lands and grooves are now radiused and the polished appearance of the surface finish.

BTW, I have a 4 inch model 620 with this new style of rifling in a tensioned 2 piece barrel. Off a benchrest using a 1.75X scope and a sandbag I managed to shoot 4 rounds into a 7/8 inch group at 50 YARDS before the scope shot loose. Fact is this new style rifling is capable of exceptional accuracy and I believe that it provides a gain in velocity when shooting jacketed ammunition. However, the one time I shot some Blazer LRN 38 spl. in it, the barrel leaded SEVERELY in just 50 rounds. IMO this is a variant of octagonal rifling that should only be used with jacketed bullets.

Quite simply, you really should take the time to confirm what type of rifling was used for the barrel in your 686 and adjust your ammo selection based on that. I'll also point out that you should check your barrel for leading by patching it with a solvent soaked patch, if it's shreds in just 2 or 3 strokes, you've got severe leading and you'll need to get it clean before you do any more shooting.

BTW, if it's badly leaded, PM me and I'll tell you how to clean it out. Note, that cleaning will run to 6 to 8 hours of work.

 

[bassoneer]

I agree with the others who recommended 4-7 yards. I can't even see the target at 25 yards. I have the same gun and ammo and I would suffer the same results at a distance of 75 feet. Don't try to keep up with the rifles just because you're on a longer range. Good luck with your new gun...it is a good one. B

 

[travo]

Wow, thanks so much for all of the informative replies!!! Scoot, thanks for the huge & informative post!!!

Mtime, I would love to have a model 18 to "train" with, and something with less boom in it for the wife and kids to shoot.... But about any new "good" gun purchase is out of sight for the remainder of the year... (3 kids, 1 in college, all girls=no money). I took a gander at the lower cost Charter Arms Target Pathfinder online... I like that it shoots mags or regular LR... But I dont know jack about Charter, and I dont want to buy a crappy gun.

Right now my priorities are to get a better cleaning kit, to get a deleading tool, a bedside safe, and "the plug". Then I can start to consider another revolver!

On another note, tomorrow is an election day in WV... So I plan on commandeering the political signage around the neighborhood, so I can use the stakes/signs to staple my targets on at the range... That way I feel something good is coming from all that evil. lol