First Issue First Contract Russian

[jleiper]

First Issue First Contract Russian

I don't believe that I have posted this one before: Serial 438

There are 3 variations or issues of the First Russian Contract revolvers:

1. First issue - guns with old style straight bottom frames, small trigger pin, old style one piece hinge pin, and marked with assembly numbers (like the contemporary First Model Americans). These all appear to have the requested preproduction changes. Approximately 500 pieces were manufactured, only two guns are currently known from this lot of revolvers (Serial 211 and Serial 438).

2. Second issue - guns with old style straight bottom frames, the small trigger pin, old style one piece hinge pin, but are marked with full serial numbers instead of assembly numbers. Approx 2000 pieces manufactured. (revolvers are seen with up to 4500ish serials)

3. Third issue - guns with new style frames (enlarged trigger pin boss), enlarged trigger pin, new style 2 piece hinge pin, and marked with full serial numbers. Approximately 17,500 manufactured.

Serial numbers
The first Russian contact was given its own serial number series starting with serial 1 and running to 20,000. The first approximately 2500 revolvers produced have the old style frame without the enlarged trigger pin and retain the old style hinge pin/screw. These revolvers with the older style frame are found mixed randomly into the serial number series as high as the 4500 range.
It is to be wondered if the first issues were also numbered as a block or if revolvers with full serial numbers are mixed into the first 500. There are so few survivors that we will probably never know.


Here is serial number 438. It has had its 8 inch barrel shortened to 6 1/2 inches - a common practice. It has seen heavy use but is still functional.

The first issues are numbered with assembly numbers like the commercial First Model Americans No 3’s being manufactured at that time.

The full serial number is found on the butt in front of the lanyard screw and inside the right grip plate.

-continued-

 

[jleiper]

1st Issue First Contract continued


The assembly number for these revolvers are found four places; master number on the frame (on the right side of the butt under the grip), the rear face of the cylinder, the right side of the rear face of the barrel extension and on the bottom of the barrel latch.


Assembly number on the rear face of the cylinder


The old style hinge pin found on first issue revolvers

-continued-

 

[jleiper]

1st Issue First Contract continued


Right side hinge comparison Serial №13300 left, Serial № 438 right


Line address and Russian acceptance on the barrel rib

Number 438 was bought from an auction house about 12-15 years ago and I got it for a very reasonable price since it had to be a mismatched revolver as "ALL Russian contract revolvers had full serial numbers!"

Joe

 

[sw44russ]

For those of us with only basic knowledge of these Models, this kind of post is invaluable. The work and time taken putting this up is very much appreciated. Excellent pictures and Information; thank you so much for sharing this.

These are rapidly becoming my all time favorite Model S&W and I am on the hunt for one. This gives me a lot more detailed knowledge of what was made and what could be out there....

Beautiful Gun by the way, cut Barrel and all....

A big thumbs up!!

 

[sw44russ]

Couple of questions;

So, the 20,000 units mentioned here were all presumably sold to and were shipped off to Russia?

Do you have any figures on 'Commercial' Models - the same Gun offered for sale in the US to Civilians? (forgive me if my terminology is wrong)

Are the 20,000 guns of this 1st Russian Contract marked in Cyrillic?

Are there known figures for Commercial Models sold over the entire Run of the 3 Russian Models?

Any help here appreciated.

 

[jleiper]

Couple of questions;

So, the 20,000 units mentioned here were all presumably sold to and were shipped off to Russia?

Yes, essentially all were shipped to Russia. A few were shipped to UMC for cartridge testing.

Do you have any figures on 'Commercial' Models - the same Gun offered for sale in the US to Civilians? (forgive me if my terminology is wrong)

Figures are available but would take a lot of explaining. I recommend Charles Pate's book on the American Model,

Are the 20,000 guns of this 1st Russian Contract marked in Cyrillic?

All are marked with the Cyrillic address and the KO acceptance stamp.

Are there known figures for Commercial Models sold over the entire Run of the 3 Russian Models?

Any help here appreciated.

Again, the information is out there but would take a lot of space. If it is of interest a larger post can be done. Remember my specialty is Russian Revolvers, but I have had to learn a LOT about the Commercial and other markets (Japan, Turkey, etc. btw both enemies of Russia!)

For more on the First Contract:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-antiques/277357-russian-first-model-contract-revolvers.html
Joe

 

[sw44russ]

Thanks for the Link Joe.

It's clearly a complicated story and a lot of information to take in and digest; your earlier article does appear to male clear that about 60,000 units were offered for sale to the Civilian Market.

What would be of great interest would be an Article focusing on just the Russians offered for Sale Commercially; with perhaps a breakdown (if it's possible) on each Model or Issue and figures - if they exist - of how many sold within the US.

I know examples that went to Russia do turn up; but one would imagine not too many have survived and are still in circulation; plus they are all likely to have seen hard use and show it. If I'm not mistaken, it's going to be those ones sold in the US that will be within the scope of us who have a fancy for them.

Great work Joe, it's our 'Brains Trusts' that make the forum so invaluable to us novices. This is pure Gold to me for one..

 

[DesmoEd]

My understanding regarding production numbers for the Commercial Russians sold in the US:

1st Russian - 5165 (its mentioned in the 1st Russian letter posted below)
2nd Russian - less than 7000
3rd Russian - app. 13,500

So total for all three Models sold in the US (non Cyrillic) would be less than 30,000 units.

 

[sw44russ]

Thanks for that Info Ed.

As you know; I want the whole set!!!

 

[jleiper]

As you know; I want the whole set!!!

If you are considering non-Cyrillic marked revolvers, then don't forget the "reissue" marked revolvers - primarily for Turkey and Japan.
Joe

 

[DesmoEd]

Thanks for that Info Ed.

As you know; I want the whole set!!!

Here is my nickel 2nd Model sold thru Hartley and Graham in 1875

Joe, how common are the Reissue pistols in the US?

 

[JSR III]

Is this the coolest place on earth or what???

Thanks for sharing this great information and providing super photos for those of us that need to see things to understand them.

 

[jleiper]

Joe, how common are the Reissue pistols in the US?

I've actually seen more of them than 2nd models. There were only 6200 2nds made in the allotted serial block and some in the over run block (above about 50000). There were about 6000 "reissue" 2nds made, 5000 for Turkey and 1000 for Japan.
Third model commercials don't seem as common i.e. you don't see them at gunshows as often even though more were made.

"Reissues" were marked for military contracts. It wasn't a good idea to put "Russian Model" on the barrel of a revolver going to Turkey - a long standing enemy of Russia , or going to Japan an emerging enemy.
One of the possible reasons Russia pulled their business from S&W was that they were selling to Turkey.

Here are some pictures:

Here is a second Russian in the "Overflow" block. (when the block of serials allocated for 2nds was filled, they seem to have just put them in serials above the 3rd block).


A "reissue" 3rd

Since "Reissues" were for military customers, they have full serial numbers - not Assy numbers. The Russian models were mostly marked like the Americans with Assy numbers (there are some exceptions, especially Russin Contract rejects).
Joe

 

[glowe]

Joe, that is a lot of research and results you have there. I like the comparison photos, as they show the very elements that Roy and others have pointed out in their books to differentiate American models. The Model 3, 1st Model American revolvers both share the same major characteristics as you show in your post. The Model 3, 2nd Model American also show the major characteristics that make them easily discernible from the previous model. Roy actually has asked for information to confirm that the 2nd Model was produced in large enough numbers to be recognized? I certainly see the issue with using the American 1st & 2nd Model designations, since there already is a 2nd Model Russian out there.

I wonder, however, why simple changes in number stampings warrant a change definition? I agree that it is an interesting change in the way the shop labeled its parts as they were building the gun. It has nothing to do, however, with the normal things which warrant a change or model designations in any particular model. Those changes have been accepted for decades now. Most recognized model/change designations are a result of patents being applied to a particular gun, which usually reflect a mechanical, configuration, or physical appearance change.

I would certainly see the possibility of a 1st Change and 2nd Change Model 3 Russian, 1st Models, but not so sure about the numbering change, since it seems like a shop decision that does nothing to alter the gun mechanics, configuration, or appearance. Good job.

 

[DesmoEd]

I've actually seen more of them than 2nd models. There were only 6200 2nds made in the allotted serial block and some in the over run block (above about 50000). There were about 6000 "reissue" 2nds made, 5000 for Turkey and 1000 for Japan.
Third model commercials don't seem as common i.e. you don't see them at gunshows as often even though more were made.

"Reissues" were marked for military contracts. It wasn't a good idea to put "Russian Model" on the barrel of a revolver going to Turkey - a long standing enemy of Russia , or going to Japan an emerging enemy.
One of the possible reasons Russia pulled their business from S&W was that they were selling to Turkey.

Here are some pictures:
View attachment 252645View attachment 252646View attachment 252647
Here is a second Russian in the "Overflow" block. (when the block of serials allocated for 2nds was filled, they seem to have just put them in serials above the 3rd block).

View attachment 252649View attachment 252650
A "reissue" 3rd

Since "Reissues" were for military customers, they have full serial numbers - not Assy numbers. The Russian models were mostly marked like the Americans with Assy numbers (there are some exceptions, especially Russin Contract rejects).
Joe

Thank you for the detailed info and superb photos.

My 2nd Model was in the allotted block and shipped to M.W. Robinson specifically for delivery to H@G in a 130 pistol shipment.

An interesting footnote about my letter was that of the 130 pistols shipped 110 were blued and only 20 were done in "full plate"

 

[jleiper]

This is going to be long winded, but will help in the understanding of the transition from the American production to the Russian Contract production:

First, I wasn't the one to coin the First, Second and Third Issues for the First Model No. 3 Russian contract revolvers, but I use it because it makes sense.
The way I look at it is that the use of full serial numbers set a precedent for S&W military contract revolvers. The original Americans and the early military contract revolvers were marked with assy. numbers. This is acceptable during the manufacture of a revolver in the factory, it assures that those hand fitted parts are put back together correctly after bluing or plating. However a master assy. number under the grips means that when a group of soldiers get together to clean their revolvers, there is no visible reference on the front half of the revolver to match it back to the original frame of the revolver for reassembly.
The Russians appear to have not liked this and asked for the change. It would not have been a S&W change as they would have seen no reason for it. It is to be noted that the subsequent contracts of the Number 3 for other military entities were manufactured with full serials instead of assy numbers.

The Russians asked for basically 10 mechanical changes and one marking change before the beginning of production, the serial/assembly number change at about serial 500 and then 2 more major mechanical changes after production seriously began (approx 2500 pieces completed and an additional 500 in process). Examination of the 2 known very early contract revolvers shows that all of the 10 initial mechanical changes seem to have been implemented at the start of production, not introduced during production.
As always, it is difficult to draw conclusions with so few surviving examples.

The original preproduction major marking change was the roll stamped Cyrillic address and double headed eagle inspector's acceptance mark on the barrel rib instead of the address and patent dates in Latin letters. Once established this mark would remain unchanged through at least the first three Russian contracts. Serial number locations would also remain the same for at least the initial 3 contracts and then the barrel serial was moved to the top of the rib between address an inspector's mark.
Joe