First Post and First AR-15; Fin Grip and Magazine Questions

[giants1]

Hi,

Tomorrow, I plan to buy an MP ii sport.

I'm in California, which requires S&W to install a fin to the pistol grip (see photo). When I was in the LGS a couple weeks back trying it out, I found that fin awkward to grip. They showed me a compliant aftermarket buttstock/grip, but wanted something like $150 for it, installed, which seems expensive. Can anyone recommend a California-compliant grip? Do vendors certify these as California-compliant? How difficult would it be for me to change it out?

Also, I'm limited to 10 round magazines. What brands/models and vendors would you recommend?

Thanks!

 

[Gunhacker]

Most all of the modified pistol grips to make an AR California compliant are various degrees of awkward compromises in my opinion. But if you're looking for the "budget" route, I recommend the "monsterman" grip with it's angled design:

MMG-AR - MonsterMan Grips California Legal AR15 & AK47 Grip — MonsterMan Grips

Otherwise better usability and less frustration, you best best is spend the money to go with a buttstock/grip setup.

I like the the Thordsen FRS Stock for it's ergonomics:

FRS-15 Gen II Stock Kits - FRS-15 Gen II Stocks | Thordsen Customs

As for difficulty in changing them out... for the pistol grip only, it's easy, you just need to be careful. The top of the pistol grip retains the spring loaded detent plunger that engages the safety lever, it will fly out and disappear if you're not careful.

For buttstocks, it's more complicated, but with care most people can do it. There is a spring loaded detent plunger for the "take down" pin that's retained by the stock that will go boing and fly off into orbit if you're not careful.

Plenty of videos on youtube on AR type work to show you how to change the pistol grip and/or buttstock.

 

[Ranger17]

I actually use 10 rounders in my Sport 2 even not being in CA, just easier when shooting off a bench and helps me watch my ammo count when I have to keep changing mags lol. And they are a little lighter to carry around.
I went with the “factory” Pmags (I assume a CA compliant AR comes with at least one?) and they seem to be available online at multiple sites. I cant say if there are any restrictions shipping them to CA, am sure those sites would list them if they did exist.

 

[K Frame Keith]

Bureaucratic nightmare.

 

[rockquarry]

I'm not restricted to using the 10-round magazines, but I find them far more useful than the longer ones. I ordered several a few years ago from Brownells. Pretty sure they are Magpul.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

By the way; Welcome to the greatest gun forum on the web! It is family friendly, so not even the wife minds if I gaze longingly at the "Gun Porn!"

After your questions about AR's are dwelt with, stroll around the other sub-forums, and see some of the amazing S&W's from the almost 175 years.

Ivan

 

[Oldsalt66]

The point of the California laws are to make these types of rifles more difficult to grip, and unfortunately, the grip S&W is installing is likely the most ergonomic of any available.

Good luck with your new rifle.

 

[TX-Dennis]

Grip is very easy to change, but California compliant grips will all be awkward. I think I'd keep the factory grip at least for awhile. Who knows, you may get used to it eventually. If you ever leave California there are many to choose from. I like the overmolded "soft" grips by Magpul and others. Unfortunately you can't (legally) have them in CA.

 

[giants1]

Thanks, all.

This afternoon, I went to my only local LGS today to pick up my first gun, a Glock 17, and possibly to buy the M&P15 or a Glock 21 (.45 ACP). I bought the Glock 17, because they had A LOT of 9 mm ammo, but no .45 ammo. The same ammo situation occurred today, so the decision was easy and I really wanted the M&P anyway. However, I was worried that the M&P might have sold in the 10 days since I was late there. More distant gun shops don't have it (and traffic to go that distance was horrible today), but fortunately, the M&P was on the shelf. The store manager was helping me (I was the only customer in the store at the time, a first compared to the other two times I went there). He reluctantly showed it to me, but also showed me a JP Enterprises for twice as much (about $1,900 vs $800). He claimed that if I wanted to upgrade it, I would be spending more than the $1,900 for the JP, which had a match-grade trigger (didn't really impress me), an ugly floating hand guard (railed upper?), and muzzle break with a stainless barrel that would give 1" groups vs pie plate groups at some crazy distance with the S&W. He berated the "cheap" barrel on the M&P and said that it really wouldn't last as long as the JP. The JP had a better non-pistol grip grip. However, I have long arms and have never held an AR-15 before (shot AK-47-type guns in the past and really like them), meaning I found it REALLY awkward to hold both guns. He said that I could cheaply add spacers to the JP, but would have to spend about $200 for an upgraded stock on the M&P.

After deliberating for 20 minutes or so, I almost bought the JP, but realized that I could get a basic floating hand guard for the M&P for $30 at Brownell's (to protect against heat from the barrel), don't need tight groups for home defense (I'm not THAT bad of a shot), and the M&P can't be THAT poor quality if this forum has so much positive regard and police departments use it. Plus, I figured that I either could find more economical ways to upgrade the M&P, instead of spending $1,100, or overcome any shortcomings in an SHTF scenario (e.g. I could train to work through the crappy grip system). I don't expect to wear out the barrel by shooting hundreds of thousands of rounds anyway. I think the other factor was that the M&P looked like a traditional AR-15, which I really like, as opposed to the JP which looked weird with the floating hand guard (and didn't have iron sites or sling braces, meaning I would have to pay extra for those upgrades).

So, I decided to buy the M&P, which they had two NIB in the back, and set aside one (I suppose I should have asked for a discount on the floor model, LOL).

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

My brother bought his M&P Sport II about 3 weeks ago for $700 OTD, being we are in Ohio. his doesn't have the California extras. When looking at what your state requires, you may have got the better deal!

I'm seeing piles of 223 ammo around, but still at very inflated prices. Supply and demand will have the prices lower in the near future. Then you get your "allowance" and my brother will stock up. Since he already has a bolt gun in 223, he already had 300-400 rounds.

Ivan

 

[giants1]

Thanks, Ivan.

I was grateful to find quality guns and ammo. It seems that everything in California is expensive and I know I paid more than I would have last year for the same, but I'll apportion that to the learning curve in addition to the pandemic (when is this going to end?). I've just spent a good part of this evening researching weapons lights and available mounting for my set-up.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Before you outfit you nice light carbine with several pounds of Lego accessories, take some time and analyze which concept you are going for.

What will you use this weapon for?

1) Target. shooting paper at close distance isn't really what target shooting is. For carbines, a realistic target practice is keeping a group of 3, 5 or 10 rounds in a certain size group at a reasonable distance of 100, 200, or 300 yards or meters. Think of softball size groups as being a goal. 3 inches is 3 MOA (Minute of Angle) at 100 yards, and close to 1 mil at 100 meters. that is a very good practical start Picking tin cans off a a further distance is a good practice also. This type of shooting is good for self defense training. And this gun is ideal for that. The weight on the barrel and forearm really effect accuracy. How much shooting in the dark will you be doing? So do you really need a flashlight? How good at heavy cover fire will you be? Do you really need a bipod? Lasers are like spotlights and tell everyone where you are at! low or now power magnification is needed in optics. Good basic Iron sights are very necessary! (they need to be sighted in and practiced with!)

2) Sniper? you need 1/4 MOA or 1/10th Mil skills at 100 yard/meter range out to 400 yards and beyond. Hunting Ground Squirrels, Marmots and Ground Hogs at those distances is good training/practice for that. Your rifle isn't designed for that. AR-15's can do this and be good at it to about 600 yards. Which is why, heavier bolt actions in other calibers are used out to 1200+ yards. (My 308 and accessories ran about $4500, and my 338 ran about $5400. AR's cannot do their job!)

3) Fun. Firing an accurate gun at any distance is pretty FUN, doing what it is designed for and doing it well is more fun (FUNNER) Doing it without costing as much as a used car is the most fun (FUNNEST!), because you can afford to get the right firearm for each type of shooting. Have fun, be safe, practice often!

Ivan

 

[moralem]

4th generation Californian here, but I moved out 30 years ago……have only gone back for funerals……when it comes to ARs I am a colt snob…..but all in all you made the right choice. However, when you only have two choices it really isn’t a choice it’s an impulse. If you were willing to pay the higher price I would have looked at the Springfield saint in .308. You should also order a few standard AR grips…..you will be better served when the SHTF.

 

[giants1]

Thanks, Ivan and moralem, for your replies.


moralem, you wrote, "You should also order a few standard AR grips." Pardon my newbie question, do you mean the pistol-type grip where the shooting hand grasps? And how many of those would you recommend for someone like me with just one AR-15 style gun? What are the advantages of that pistol grip in an SHTF?

Ivan, I bought the M&P for home defense in the home. I already have a 9mm pistol, but want to use it as a back-up, it's my understanding that the .223 penetrates walls less and, given the AR-15 platform, is less likely to miss.

Yesterday, I bought Tul Ammo, FMJ, 55 grain, when I bought the M&P, for practice. I don't know if I can return it, because I later learned that they have steel cases which can wear out barrels prematurely and cause jams, at least in some anecdotal reports (cf. Lucky Gunner article; https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/).

 

[Ranger17]

Yesterday, I bought Tul Ammo, FMJ, 55 grain, when I bought the M&P, for practice. I don't know if I can return it, because I later learned that they have steel cases which can wear out barrels prematurely and cause jams, at least in some anecdotal reports (cf. Lucky Gunner article; https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/).

I have spoken to others who have had zero issues with steel cased ammo, and in the past year plus that often was the only 223 one would see available. I have used it in my Sport 2, always fired and while it may or may not be as clean as brass, it was good enough to practice and get used to the AR platform.
Cant say I would run thousands of rounds of it, but a couple hundred does not concern me.
Just my .02

 

[rockquarry]

Hi,

Tomorrow, I plan to buy an MP ii sport.

I'm in California, which requires S&W to install a fin to the pistol grip (see photo). When I was in the LGS a couple weeks back trying it out, I found that fin awkward to grip. They showed me a compliant aftermarket buttstock/grip, but wanted something like $150 for it, installed, which seems expensive. Can anyone recommend a California-compliant grip? Do vendors certify these as California-compliant? How difficult would it be for me to change it out?

Also, I'm limited to 10 round magazines. What brands/models and vendors would you recommend?

Thanks!

It may feel awkward at first, but shoot a few hundred rounds and give your gun a fair shake straight-out-of-the box before any modification. It may work far better than you think. A lot of AR folks are incessant changers and modifiers and read far too much about this stuff on the Internet. Many of the Internet "platformers" seem to have little interest in marksmanship and learning good shooter technique.

After giving your AR a good workout and you find it has shortcomings you can't live with, that's the time to make changes.

 

[moralem]

Thanks, Ivan and moralem, for your replies.


moralem, you wrote, "You should also order a few standard AR grips." Pardon my newbie question, do you mean the pistol-type grip where the shooting hand grasps? And how many of those would you recommend for someone like me with just one AR-15 style gun? What are the advantages of that pistol grip in an SHTF?

Ivan, I bought the M&P for home defense in the home. I already have a 9mm pistol, but want to use it as a back-up, it's my understanding that the .223 penetrates walls less and, given the AR-15 platform, is less likely to miss.

Yesterday, I bought Tul Ammo, FMJ, 55 grain, when I bought the M&P, for practice. I don't know if I can return it, because I later learned that they have steel cases which can wear out barrels prematurely and cause jams, at least in some anecdotal reports (cf. Lucky Gunner article; https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/).

I would look at the traditional straight pistol grip and the magpul versions that have finger grooves. You don’t want to be messing with that dang paddle grip in a self defense situation….no way you can fully control the rifle or have a firm steadying grip. Or for that matter a firm grip if the rifle were to be pried from your hands.

I have no idea how someone can shoot without having the thumb around the grip.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Velle]

Like others said. Shoot it and get used to it before you start making changes. Don't worry about the steel cased. It will run just fine and the accuracy may surprise you. You will have to shoot many thousands of rounds to notice any barrel wear or extractor damage.

 

[Goblin]

I’d say you definitely made the right choice. For $1900 there are far better options, your dealer simply didn’t have them in stock so he tried to upsell what he had.

Find out the legality of standard pistol grips. It’s doubtful you’d be unhappy with the one from Hogue, even though you might like another better if you tried twenty different ones.

 

[giants1]

Thanks, Goblin. I suspected that, though if he showed me a Colt LE6920 at that price point, I probably would have bought that one (well, I CAN dream, LOL).

When I first checked out the M&P15 about two weeks ago, I was immediately turned off when holding it due to the fin grip. Granted, before I bought it yesterday, the length of pull turned me off, so perhaps I got accustomed to the fin grip.

It's my understanding that vertical pistol grips are not okay in this type of gun, because it would lose its "featureless" status.

This Sparrow Dynamics grip option looks pretty good:

FEATURELESS GRIP for California Legal AR-15 Rifles

And this California attorney, who is prolific on reviewing California gun laws and court cases, believes it will probably pass muster if a California DA decided to prosecute it as an "assault weapon:"

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_BYvdOGZf8&t=299s&ab_channel=ArmedScholar[/ame]

Does anyone have that grip?