First post

[Allen 1]

Hello and I'm happy to be here.

Been lurking for some time and decided it was time to join. Since this is my first post I would like to add some info that has worked for me regarding trigger work and will also work for you..

I'm 51 years old and have been doing trigger work on Glocks and various rifles for many years now. All work has been done in my garage on my own personal firearms as well as friends and family.

I just recently purchased a 15-22 for a fun plinker. Upon receiving the gun I measured the trigger pull after a clean and lube. Using a RCBS pull gauge, I did 10 pulls and got an average 7# pull.

Takeup was very minimal and decently smooth. I went to the range and shot 300 rounds that day. No mishaps. Very enjoyable day at the range. I used CCI Tactical 22 ammo. Excellent ammo in my opinion.

The following day I again measured the trigger pull and it had decreased by 1/2# to 6 1/2#. I then removed the trigger group and went to work. Having read as many post as I could find regarding trigger work for the 15-22, I had previously ordered the JP reduced power trigger springs and had them on my bench.

I polished every single part of the trigger assembly to a mirror finish using a Dremel tool on low and Flitz polish. I also used my hard Arkansas black stone on several parts to really smooth them up. I pay close attention not to remove the sharp edge on the sear faces, only a nice polish.

I then created a speed hammer using the existing hammer . This was achieved by removing the rear "hook" of the hammer flush with the back of the hammer. I smoothed the cut surface, polished and re-blued the cut area to look "factory'. It came out excellent.

I then lubed all areas of movement and mating surfaces with moly based lube. All other parts were treated to Ballistol (my favorite for years).

Trigger pull is now a very consistent 3 1/2 #. Ultra smooth, no over travel and zero creep. Total investment was $10 and about 2 hours time. I would put this trigger setup up against any high dollar trigger and it will equal or surpass them all.

It really all boils down to how much time you are willing to spend on the details. Take your time, do it right. Walk away if you have to and return. I also use a jewelers loupe to get a real close examination of the parts and to look at my progress.

I hope this helps anyone who wonders if a really good trigger is possible using the JP springs and doing some nice polishing. Don't be afraid, take your time and you can do it. Self satisfaction is a wonderful thing!

So thanks for having me and be safe out there. God bless.

 

[pghrich]

Nice write up, and welcome, question, i did all you did except modifying the hammer and my trigger pull is about 5 1/2 lbs, does modifying the hammer help that much? thanks pghrich

 

[Allen 1]

Thanks for the welcome.

Lightening the hammer won't affect trigger pull weight as far as I can tell. The reason for the "speed" hammer is mass. The stock factory hammer is made to work with the factory hammer spring which is WAY too heavy in my opinion.

When you lighten the hammer spring your now trying to move the same mass but with a much lighter force (spring). This is where people start to experience "light" strikes.

Rimfire ammunition being what it is (not 100% reliable) you need all the help you can get to ensure a reliable ignition. Since a heavy weight takes a good amount of effort to move, the heavy spring is necessary. We can overcome this by using a "light" spring moving less "mass".

It's a balancing act at best.

You can't expect a part designed to achieve a "result" and then change its related parts and then expect the same "result". This is not 100% reliable nor should it be expected to be.

But, by removing "mass" we are replacing it with "speed". It's a fast moving hard hitting strike to the firing pin all in the "quest" for a nice reliable trigger pull and proper ignition.

Remember, "heavy" is slow to get moving and slow to stop. I'm sure you've heard the term, "Once an object starts in motion it tends to stay in motion". A "light" object is much easier to get moving and therefor much easier to stop as well. It's all about mass.

The trick to getting that really nice light trigger I spoke of is in the "details". When you look at the trigger group parts are you wondering where to start? Pay close attention to all mating surfaces, especially trigger pin, hammer pin and related guide holes in the hammer and trigger.

I will put my "pins" in my drill press and spin them on a low speed and apply "Flitz" polish with the Dremel also on low speed until I get the desired result. It's only a polish not a metal removing process.

When you have a "heavy" trigger pull, what you are experiencing is "resistance". So, the more "resistance" we can eliminate the "lighter" the trigger pull will be. "Friction" and "drag" is our enemy here. Those 2 factors also create "wear". Lighter springs, reduced "mass", proper polishing and good lubrication are all essential to a great result.

As a side note, I will NEVER advise a "modification" on a firearm that I feel is unsafe or unreliable. I want us all to be safe and enjoy our sport that we all love.

I'll do another post later regarding lubricants and my experience with that industry. I worked for a "specialized" lubrication company in the R&D department for several years and have some good knowledge in that field.

Also, for you guys and ladies that are frustrated with the "slop" in your factory adjustable stock I have an easy and inexpensive "fix" for that that works beautifully!

Go to your local home improvement store ( I chose Lowes) and purchase a roll of "Shurtape" part # DC-181 used for class 1 duct sealing. This is a thin "reflective" aluminum tape.

Start by removing the stock. Simply push down on the adjustment lever and it will slide right off. On the top side of the "buffer tube" apply a 4" long strip of the tape (the tape is approximately 1 1/2" wide) and reinstall the stock. Keep adding pieces of tape until you achieve the desired "fit". Mine took 4 pieces. It's now "wobble free" and much more stable in the hands. Cost of the tape was $8. An easy fix.

Remember, be safe out there and God bless.

 

[RolandW]

Wow, I'm glad you've gone from "lurking" to "writing." Can't wait to read more contributions from you. Welcome!

 

[stavman11]

Great input

and welcome to the 15-22 addiction

Stav

 

[pghrich]

I must say i am impressed with your logic , you sure seem to have all your ducks in a row, thanks for the input and no i did not do as much to my fcg as you did but i will, again thanks and God Bless you also, pghrich

 

[Allen 1]

Thanks for all the warm welcomes.

pghrich, I would invest in some type of magnification, either a magnifying glass or a loupe.

I use a loupe made by Belomo. It's a Triplet 10x power, made in Belarus. Its available at Amazon.com for $28. Loupes are fantastic for checking your progress.

Look at the surfaces you intend to "smooth" before you start with the loupe. Then check the surfaces as you go to see your progress. You will be amazed at the finished surface as compared to your starting surface.

You will immediately see where all the "friction" and "drag" comes from on the factory surfaces.

You might say "I'm not spending $28 on a loupe to simply smooth a trigger surface. That's nuts!"

Look at it like this. Alot of good folks spend their time on a "trigger job" only to be disappointed after. They scratch their heads and wonder where they went wrong?

By first observing your surfaces prior to the metal prep and as you go , you will see when it's time to stop or progress further. All the guess work is gone and you won't be left scratching your head.

Besides, loupes have all types of uses. Ever get a splinter and can't seem to locate it to pull it out? Use a loupe to see it easily. It's a good investment, not money wasted.

Once again thanks for the welcome guys. God bless you and your families.

 

[Avery11]

First off, welcome to the forum. Where have you been all this time while I was whining about my sloppy 15-22???

For a first time out, you came out swinging and hit a home run. Thank you for the information. You have summed up the DIY trigger job better than any i've seen in that you inspire confidence by removing the stigma and asserting a logical approach.

I say again, very nice job. I'll bet alot of people are going to add this thread to their favorites as a reference.

Man, all I did was mutter a mis-spelled hello in my first post

 

[blackdeuce]

Welcome. I'm sure that your input will be appreciated.

 

[Gatillo]

Excellent introduction and thread topic. Thanks, allen and welcome!

 

[pghrich]

Happy Easter to all and thanks for the advise Allen 1, and lets see some pics of your set up, i bet its really cool, pghrich

 

[Yuba]

Speed hammer

I then created a speed hammer using the existing hammer . This was achieved by removing the rear "hook" of the hammer flush with the back of the hammer. I smoothed the cut surface, polished and re-blued the cut area to look "factory'. It came out excellent.

Thanks so much for the info. Any chance you could do a follow up with photos of this step? I want to improve my trigger and I think there are guys here who also would and photos are very helpfull sometimes. Thanks in advance. Coincidentally I started a trigger post today, I didn't see your post the title threw me off a bit.

Yuba

 

[Allen 1]

I'll get a few pics up soon of the hammer.

 

[DelFuego]

Thanks for the welcome.

....
Also, for you guys and ladies that are frustrated with the "slop" in your factory adjustable stock I have an easy and inexpensive "fix" for that that works beautifully!

Go to your local home improvement store ( I chose Lowes) and purchase a roll of "Shurtape" part # DC-181 used for class 1 duct sealing. This is a thin "reflective" aluminum tape.

Start by removing the stock. Simply push down on the adjustment lever and it will slide right off. On the top side of the "buffer tube" apply a 4" long strip of the tape (the tape is approximately 1 1/2" wide) and reinstall the stock. Keep adding pieces of tape until you achieve the desired "fit". Mine took 4 pieces. It's now "wobble free" and much more stable in the hands. Cost of the tape was $8. An easy fix.

Remember, be safe out there and God bless.

Thanks for the info because I hate the toy-gun slop of the adjustible stock

 

[photoracer]

You have some good info in your postings. I like your stock play fix. Admittedly the Vltor stock on the Performance Center does not have as much play as the standard models. I just wish I could mount the Ergo F93 Pro stock from my multigun AR on the AR15-22, but unfortunately it does not use a standard buffer tube.
As for triggers my results don't match yours exactly. I don't believe in messing with them as much as you but I can appreciate the kind of dedication you put into yours. Either way regardless of your work I am betting I could smoke you and yours in the type of competition I have been involved in for the last several years, speed shooting. Admittedly triggers can be designed different for various types of activities and they are indeed speced in various areas differently for different shooting activities. And in that case no amount of polishing is going to overcome design limitations in that particular trigger. We aren't talking about pistol triggers where there are parts and ways to modify the design a little but no way to actually drop in an entirely different design. Pistols don't have one and two stage designs, which can be made to accomplish very diferent results. As an example the PC model comes with a nice but stiff RRA 2-stage, a somewhat better design for a model with precision pretentions that includes a longer match grade barrel. Putting the JP springs in with just the recommended polishing can give you a decent 3-3.5# trigger. But no amount of polishing can change the basic reset length and lockup time of the RRA design. It was not designed to need those qualities. I discovered the hard way that the trigger could just not be fired fast enough for what I needed it for. I hit a wall I could not pass when doing speed drills for Steel Challenge. My trigger finger could move faster than the trigger could be reset. At that point you have only 2 real choices and neither is cheap, either the AT Gold or the Geissele Dynamic Super 3-Gun. Both over $200 depending on whether you want a flat or curved trigger. I chose the latter after testing and trying several triggers. Jerry (Miculek) likes the AT and that is a good recommendation, but I could get the S3G for less ($210 vs. $250). By the way the RRA + JP springs gives no light strikes of any kind. When I installed the S3G I decided to experiment so I installed the JP springs in also as a test. Big difference. The S3G is a specilized version of the Geissele SSA battle trigger used by SOCOM. It is a 2-stage that feels like one single stage because you can't feel where the two come together. Listed as a 2.5#/2.5# pull weight. With the JP springs the trigger became a 1.25# trigger according to my RCBS trigger gauge. I shot an event or 2 that way to get a feel for it. Absolutely no light strikes at all. I found I could do 6 round Bill Drills in 1.47s and 1.51s using 1 and 3 targets respectively. But for safety reasons I decided to put the S3G stock springs back in and return the trigger to its normal 2.5# stages. Shoots just as good so I intend to leave it that way for awhile. The S3G trigger only takes about a 1/4" relaxing of the trigger finger to reset it for a followup shot, inspite of its basic 2-stage design.
I'm mentioning this not because I think you are wrong but because in the case of rifles like the AR you don't have enough information to make a claim like that. And if I decide to come down to FL for the World Speed Steel Championship maybe we could test this out. Or if you come up here for the Ruger Rimfire World Championship in PA this year.
I also know something about lubrication, having been a car and motorcycle racer for over 2 decades and knowing a prominent engineer from Shell Oil for many years.
Keep up the good postings.

 

[Doc Robin]

Thanks for the great information; looking forward to reading more of your posts.

Bill

 

[Majorlk]

Photoracer:

Your posts on your search for your perfect trigger, including the last post, have been both interesting and educational. I do have a question:

At what point does the cycle time of the action become shorter than the reset time of the trigger - or is the cycle time so short it is a non-isue?

 

[Allen 1]

Excellent post and insight Photoracer.

However, I think some folks here tend to misinterpret my postings. My goal is for the DIY. The economy being what it is, I like to give people some ideas and applications that will work quite well and save them some money.

I would much rather spend $8 on some tape to fix my stock rather than $80 and up on a different stock that will solve the same problem but makes my wallet much lighter.

My trigger work will work wonders on the stock trigger for $10. Once again trying to achieve the same result spending $200 isn't for everyone.

It's nice to be able to just sit back and throw money at a problem if you have the disposable income to do so. I would rather do it myself and keep the money in my pocket and still have a rifle that not only performs well but that I did myself.

My posts are not meant for the spenders. They are meant for the guy that wants a good result and still be able to afford the diapers. For that matter I could just send my rifle off to some gun guru and pay the bill.

I mean no disrespect towards you as that's not my style. But if I can help just 1 guy here put a smile on his face for little money I have done my job.

God bless and stay safe out there.

 

[photoracer]

Oh I was not implying you were doing it wrong. Heck when it comes to my rimfire competition pistols I have made lots of stuff for them. Many of the items people want me to make for them too but as yet I don't feel I have time to be a vender of gun parts also. I try to balance the buy it or make it by what I think my time is worth. And right now the company that employs me at the VA thinks that is about $45/hour.

 

[brad.conner]

Allen, great post!

I'm about 90% ready to do this to my gun... (Not that I don't trust you Allen), but has anyone else tried this?

Don't get me wrong, Allen you sound WAY to knowledgeable to be a glue sniffing psychopath, but since I can't run down the street to Gander Mountain, and pick up a new part…