In the last couple days I have read of failures while using Remington, Winchester, CCI and Federal. If we exclude all these we'll have to start throwing rocks for fun.
haha nice
For those of you with blown out extractors on your M&P 15-22... I have a question.
- Thread starter allglock
- Start date
haha nice
Personally, I'm starting to think that the failure to feed issues and the OOB discharges are connected. And in my opinion, the failure to feed issues are related to magazine geometry (feed angle, height in relation to bolt and chamber etc). The theory that's starting to develop in my mind is that the misfeed is distorting the cartridge (specificly how the bullet is crimped into the case) enough that on occasion it keeps the cartridge from chambering properly. This could account for some of the sub par accuracy that this "match grade" barrel provides.
There are a few other possibilities that I'm considering.
1. Bolt to carrier rail interface out of spec. If the rails are not parrellel it could induce enough drag to keep the round from chambering properly. On the other end of the spectrum, if the bolt is too loose in the rails, it's possible for the bolt to close off center causing the bolt face itself to crimp the rim and ignite the primer.
2. It's possible that the chamber is out of spec or on the tight end of the SAAMI spec. But seeing how the rifle seems to take stingers and some of the other long case hyper velocity rounds, I don't think this is the case.
3. Improper headspace not allowing bolt to go into battery or too much headspace resulting in an unsupported portion of the cartridge. This is a very real possibility.
I had another idea before I started this reply, but I can't remember what it was.
I think a somewhat reasonable test for the failure to feed theory would be to pause firing between rounds, inspect the rifle to make sure the the bolt is fully in battery. Then carefully eject the round to inspect the bullet to case fit to make sure it is still true and not cock-eyed.
As for the headspace issue, it should be pretty easy to tell if it's too tight. The bolt would never fully be in battery with a round chambered. Checking if there is too much headspace is a little more difficult. I'm not sure how you would actually measure it.
There are a few other possibilities that I'm considering.
1. Bolt to carrier rail interface out of spec. If the rails are not parrellel it could induce enough drag to keep the round from chambering properly. On the other end of the spectrum, if the bolt is too loose in the rails, it's possible for the bolt to close off center causing the bolt face itself to crimp the rim and ignite the primer.
2. It's possible that the chamber is out of spec or on the tight end of the SAAMI spec. But seeing how the rifle seems to take stingers and some of the other long case hyper velocity rounds, I don't think this is the case.
3. Improper headspace not allowing bolt to go into battery or too much headspace resulting in an unsupported portion of the cartridge. This is a very real possibility.
I had another idea before I started this reply, but I can't remember what it was.
I think a somewhat reasonable test for the failure to feed theory would be to pause firing between rounds, inspect the rifle to make sure the the bolt is fully in battery. Then carefully eject the round to inspect the bullet to case fit to make sure it is still true and not cock-eyed.
As for the headspace issue, it should be pretty easy to tell if it's too tight. The bolt would never fully be in battery with a round chambered. Checking if there is too much headspace is a little more difficult. I'm not sure how you would actually measure it.
I agree with you and because of this forum,I chose to buy a
SIG in lieu of the S&W. It seems a day doesn't go by when
someone else is not having a problem with this issue.I am VERY
surprised that S&W has NOT had a major recall(like the auto
industry) when there is a SAFETY concern. The longer this
goes and IF these problems persist with the end
result being someone really getting hurt S&W is going to
look negligent to say the least. This will hurt S&W financially
and also will impact all of us in the shooting fraternity.Pete
chuck s
Member
The SIG 522 might be nice but it's not a "M16/AR15" system. For plinking a Ruger 10-22 is still the best available today. But if you're looking for more "M16/AR15" trigger time you need a clone of one.
I've seen out of battery firing on many .22LR self loaders. The firing pin might strike the rim or the rim gets crushed during incomplete or partial loading. If we can determine what's happening we can help S&W device a redesign or fix.
I'm pretty sure this is what happened when my extractor went missing, but didn't notice the case. Nor did I have to pry a blown case out of the receiver.
-- Chuck
I've seen out of battery firing on many .22LR self loaders. The firing pin might strike the rim or the rim gets crushed during incomplete or partial loading. If we can determine what's happening we can help S&W device a redesign or fix.
I'm pretty sure this is what happened when my extractor went missing, but didn't notice the case. Nor did I have to pry a blown case out of the receiver.
-- Chuck
for me the rim got crushed when reloading, the case was only 75% in the chamber when it went off
a few FTEs then shot ok for a few then bang
.......I shoot stingers and never have had a problem.
Here is a theory, tight chambers plus dirty chambers and out of spec ammo are the root causes. My guess is that folks are running these guns hard during a range day with known dirty ammo WInchester, Remington, federal bulk thus fouling the chamber causing a round to stick and fire OOB. Might be interesting to understand round count on the day of the failure to determine if dirty chambers are a culprit.
Out of spec ammo, especially with the shortage ammo mfgs are pumping out millions is 22lr per day, I guarantee you that quality control is not as good. I've read on another forum that Remington bulk that caused a OOB on a 10-22 was noticeably deformed from the factory.
The OOB failure are not limited to 15-22 other shooters are experiencing this issue. Just do a search.
Might be good to run a patch or bore snake every 100-200 rounds and use non-bulk ammo.
Out of spec ammo, especially with the shortage ammo mfgs are pumping out millions is 22lr per day, I guarantee you that quality control is not as good. I've read on another forum that Remington bulk that caused a OOB on a 10-22 was noticeably deformed from the factory.
The OOB failure are not limited to 15-22 other shooters are experiencing this issue. Just do a search.
Might be good to run a patch or bore snake every 100-200 rounds and use non-bulk ammo.
Majorlk
Member
Just my own experience ...
Over the past 40+ years I have shot close to a million rounds of .22 LR of just about every brand available during those years. I have yet to experience an OOB with any ammo. The very few I am acquainted with were on firearms in basically filthy condition. I subscribe to theory that problem is almost firearm-related, not ammo-related.
Over the past 40+ years I have shot close to a million rounds of .22 LR of just about every brand available during those years. I have yet to experience an OOB with any ammo. The very few I am acquainted with were on firearms in basically filthy condition. I subscribe to theory that problem is almost firearm-related, not ammo-related.
030201_S&W
Member
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Fire arm dirty + clean the trigger or weak spring or all the above. I assume the firearm is in good operating condition elsewise.
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A100user
Member
I have had my extractor replaced twice and I realised the issue was not the gun.
I used to keep a breach flag in when not in use and on occasions the bolt catch was released - in the bag or just laying it down. The extractor was driven up to the flag and over time it became dislodged. I no long store the gun with a flag in.
I used to keep a breach flag in when not in use and on occasions the bolt catch was released - in the bag or just laying it down. The extractor was driven up to the flag and over time it became dislodged. I no long store the gun with a flag in.
tomcatt51
Member
I suspect it has little to do with "round count on the day of the failure" and everything to do with a dirty chamber. I see too many people fuss over cleaning the bore while seeming to leave all the crud they cleaned out of the bore sitting in the chamber. It's easy to see if the bore is clean. It's much harder to see if the chamber is clean and actually get it clean.
SmokeStack Lightning
Member
I use a desk mounted, lit magnifier and nylon dental picks for this purpose.
The build up of carbon is well camouflaged too, because w/o the magnifier, I don't see squat.
And, I too, have never experienced an out of battery misfire in my whole live long life. (Or failed extractor).
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I've seen four of these events personally. All on very hot days and all during matches where multiple people shared a gun, thus the guns did get dirty. We cleaned the guns a few times during the day but still you know the gun was getting dirty. One gun did this, was sent back to Smith, and had a repeat event. Three different types of ammo. I'm currently using a Ruger, I'll let you know if it does the same.
photoracer
Member
Sorry but in the case of .22 that is a crock. OOB are a problem exclusively to blowback action firearms, which among other things means mostly rimfires (and .25-.380 pistols). Several things can cause it hardly any of which have anything to do with the SAAMI specs. Slamfires, crud in the chamber, and rounds with excessive OAL can all have a part in it. But the reason is that the design of blowback guns requires that the trigger be able to trip slightly before the action completely closes. So if the round can't fully chamber due to crud, it can go off. And if the bolt bounces similar to a slamfire it can go off, and if the round is slightly too long (especially if you are using a PC model with a match chamber) it can go off. Not to mention if you are firing extremely fast, as in you have a 3-gun trigger in your gun and you are trying to do the 25 rds in 5 seconds drill it can happen.
Now in 2010 when the problem first reared its head they put in a stiffer blue recoil spring to eliminate the bounce/slamfire issue. That was the main fix. But using the wrong ammo in a PC model can cause it also so they have lists of yay and nay ammos to use. Remember there is a very fine line in ammo power that allows a blowback design to function perfectly. And getting crud in the chamber so the round does not fully seat is something that has to be watched by the shooter picking the least dirty ammo and keeping the chamber relatively clean (does not mean clean more often but watch out for dirty ammo like Remington brand. If the round does not fully seat the bolt closing will try to push it into the chamber all the way and if you have already pulled the trigger it will go off slightly before its closed. Still pretty rare considering the amount of guns and ammo poured thru 15-22s daily. Heck when I used to use a Remington 597 in Ruger Rimfire I had 4 OOBs in the space of 2 years, 2 in practice and 2 in matches. I have had none with either of my 15-22s since getting the first in 2011. But I did lose an extractor in my PC model when I had a jam using slightly longer ammo, in this case Federal Champion (blue box), when it popped off the bolt when trying to clear it. S&W still wanted my gun back to check it out.
If you want to see this in slow motion. Pull the bolt back slightly in any .22 firearm, then after pulling the trigger back slowly let the bolt go back towards battery and you will see it goes off slightly before the bolt closes. Or you can do it the other way and pull the bolt back slightly and see how soon you can get the trigger to fire before you release the bolt completely. Its this action function that allows people who don't like to dryfire their .22 to get the hammer down after an RO tells them to close the hammer after a match.
And why this is uncommon in .25-.380 firearms is because they have recoil springs way out of proportion to their slide travels for this very reason. Plus they have ammo that produces lots more energy in general that a .22LR. Also why so many find the slides on those guns hard to pull back in many cases. Its a fine line between function and failure in a .22.
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photoracer
Member
From 2010 to mid-2011 I had 4 OOBs in my Remington 597 I used for Ruger Rimfire. From mid-2011 to mid-2014 I used 15-22s and had no issues although I saw several OOBs others had in 2010 events. From mid-2014 to present I have used a custom 10/22 with zero issues except for occasional dud rounds that the 10/22 extractors sometimes can't get out of the chamber. So using good ammo is key. I use nothing but CCI-AR Tactical in my rifles from when it came out around 2011. 40g Mini-Mags in my pistols. Sometimes lesser ammo in a match that is not really important.
ajzadavis
Member
I won't use winchester ever again had the same problem with the super x
Joe.45
Member
No, no... Shoot what ever U want, all U can shoot... If anything happens to your 15-22 just send it to S&W until they fix the problem... Eventually they'll get it right. Take advantage of the S&W warranty which is one of the best in the market.
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