Ford Motors shoots itself in foot.
- Thread starter oldRoger
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rundownfid
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Not the worst thing they could do. It would be much cheaper to build "world cars" somewhere there is no UAW. So yes, tear the factory don move the equipment wherever they need to build what will sell. Staying in Mich, sounds like suicide to me.
Toyota and Honda can make cars in the US, at a profit (in more normal times), why can't the "big three"? Ford needs to follow their lead and build any new plants in the South. However, the new administration seems intent on forcing American businesses to keep their labor unions, and therefore their chance at competitiveness.
bk43
Member
Smart move IMHO. The automobile market is going to be driven by the fuit loop, tofu sucking, tree hugging liberals in Washington(by way of California). Think you're going to get the vehicle you actually want? Go pound sand. Ford is going to be ready to hit the ground running when the obscene environmental requirements for the Waxmanmobile come down from Washngton.
Bob
Bob
LoadedRound
Member
They haven't given up on the big SUV market. They moved Expedition / Navigator production to KTP in Louisville. They had lots of excess production capacity after SuperDuty sales dropped.
guntownuncle
Member
When, or if, the economy comes back you'll see gas prices up around $4 again. Plus, fashions change. Right now the ladies want to be seen driving an SUV to the hairdressers, but who knows when it will go back to Mini-vans or stationwagons or big Buicks or whatever. Primarily I think it will be the gas prices that hurt SUV sales. China and India will stay a part of the industrialized world, and so high gas prices are inevitable. We should be drilling here, as well as trying to come up with alternative sources. The ones now are pretty much rip-offs, but someday some really bright guy will come up with something. Then we can tell Mexico, Saudi Arabia and Venezuela to drink their damn oil.
orion1
Member
As others have said electric cars may be viable as a city/suburb transport. GM's "Next Generation" electric car the Volt is advertised to get UP TO 40 miles per charge. Which will drop off dramatically in hill country, cold weather and as you add passengers/cargo. The other downside is expense. Electric cars are several thousand dollars more expensive than their internal combustion counterparts and replacing the batteries costs several thousand dollars. Then there is the toxic load to the environment by producing all of those batteries and disposing of them. Just because you don't see the environmental impact at the source (in this case, the car) it doesn't mean that it is environmentally friendly.
Dan Cash
Member
Chrysler had the turbine cars and they were sky rockets. However, you have not lived until you feed a turbine engine as they have a big thirst.
Bassamatic
US Veteran
Dumbest damn thing I have heard this week.
There is no gasoline shortgage. That's what the Libs want you to think and I guess people are buying into it, even here.
Let the urban dwellers buy the electic/hybrid cars. GM and Chrysler/Fiat will make tons of them. Ford's best seller has been the F150 for years...for a reason. They will be making a huge mistake if they buy into that thinking.
There is no gasoline shortgage. That's what the Libs want you to think and I guess people are buying into it, even here.
Let the urban dwellers buy the electic/hybrid cars. GM and Chrysler/Fiat will make tons of them. Ford's best seller has been the F150 for years...for a reason. They will be making a huge mistake if they buy into that thinking.
I don't understand why anybody would think this is such a terrible business decision! FoMoCo is converting one (1) assembly plant to manufacture battery powered vehicles. That hardly spells the end of truck and SUV production by Ford or anybody else. Does anybody seriously think that we are going to be driving new V8 powered F-150-sized pickups in 20 years? To me it seems like a sensible decision to diversify their product line to satisfy what is obviously a trend to other products. I have a 2005 Ford F-150 Laredo in my driveway, and it is a great truck, but I won't be buying another one simply because the cost of operation is too high. Maybe I'll buy one of those battery powered jobs being produced in that plant!
Henry Ford had a favorite saying, we are told: "If you always do what you have always done, you will always get what you always got."
It works both ways. Time will tell on this move. I wouldn't bet against it.
It works both ways. Time will tell on this move. I wouldn't bet against it.
Frizzman
US Veteran
We have three Ford vehicles. They have been very good cars. Ford didn't take a government bailout. They continue to pay their workers decent wages and benefits. They haven't stiffed their retirees. The World is becoming more and more urban and a small car that doesn't need a gas station to fuel up is perhaps a viable product.
The core of business is to produce new products and sell them. There is always some risk to doing that. The unwillingness to look forward and anticipate the changing market has brought the American makers to the disaster that exists now. At least, Ford is attempting to present a new product that addresses a changing market and employing American workers.
The last observation is that we seem to forget bad situations very quickly. When gas was very expensive last year there was lots of wailing and whining about it. There was a call to drill, drill, drill. Back then I was riding my Honda scooter much of the time in doing my daily business. I would have ridden an American made scooter except there isn't one. It's a 250cc that will run up to 75-80 mph and gets about 70 mpg. Before the gas prices became crazy, some people laughed at my scooter. When gas was $4 it wasn't so funny. The comments became, "What kind of mileage does that get?" and "How fast does that go?" and "How much does that cost and where did you get that?". In many parts of the World where gas is $10 a gal a scooter is no toy, it's serious transportation. Sometimes one has to evolve or die. Maybe an electric car is marketable.
The core of business is to produce new products and sell them. There is always some risk to doing that. The unwillingness to look forward and anticipate the changing market has brought the American makers to the disaster that exists now. At least, Ford is attempting to present a new product that addresses a changing market and employing American workers.
The last observation is that we seem to forget bad situations very quickly. When gas was very expensive last year there was lots of wailing and whining about it. There was a call to drill, drill, drill. Back then I was riding my Honda scooter much of the time in doing my daily business. I would have ridden an American made scooter except there isn't one. It's a 250cc that will run up to 75-80 mph and gets about 70 mpg. Before the gas prices became crazy, some people laughed at my scooter. When gas was $4 it wasn't so funny. The comments became, "What kind of mileage does that get?" and "How fast does that go?" and "How much does that cost and where did you get that?". In many parts of the World where gas is $10 a gal a scooter is no toy, it's serious transportation. Sometimes one has to evolve or die. Maybe an electric car is marketable.
truckemup97
Member
I haven't seen anywhere that Ford says they will never make another SUV/pickup/4x4. This is not the only plant they own. Toyota and Honda, and soon GM, are selling lots of hybrids. Why shouldn't Ford offer one also? Battery electric vehicles won't work for everyone, just like pickups don't work for everyone. Hybrids make sense right now. Sure, they won't solve all the world's problems, but they are a start. The new hybrid Ford introduced this week gets 41 MPG city out of a midsize body. That's better than the Camry. Why shouldn't Ford compete?
I think that like GMs volt, Fords Electric car is a tactical move; done to please the greenies, congress, and "Bill" Ford (Bill is proof of the old adage, shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in three generations).
Keep in mind that with the current UAW contract Ford will pay the people working or not, retired or not. I don't know haw that affects their thinking but it must.
The UAW contract and our high standard of living insure that none of the big three will be exporting small cars anytime soon, at least at a profit.
Hybrids are selling, not well, but selling, every one including Toyota loses money on each one sold.
Electric Cars:
Folks there isn't any efficient, affordable, battery, there may be someday but the battery makers promised GM a battery in 1971, they are still waiting. Forty or even 100 mile recharges are not going to make it with most of us.
Electrics have a high draw when sitting with either heat or air conditioning going, meaning not the answer for long battery life in most cities most of the time. Imagine running a 5 hp AC motor from a battery.
The big cities are the very place where there is no elec, power to spare. Do folks in LA want to choose between their house AC or charging their car for tomorrows commute?
Hybrids do not sell well in Florida because the AC requires the thing run off the engine much of the time. It would be a killer on an electric.
I could go on about energy storage density but I am a poor typist, and really don't want to bore anyone.
Keep in mind that with the current UAW contract Ford will pay the people working or not, retired or not. I don't know haw that affects their thinking but it must.
The UAW contract and our high standard of living insure that none of the big three will be exporting small cars anytime soon, at least at a profit.
Hybrids are selling, not well, but selling, every one including Toyota loses money on each one sold.
Electric Cars:
Folks there isn't any efficient, affordable, battery, there may be someday but the battery makers promised GM a battery in 1971, they are still waiting. Forty or even 100 mile recharges are not going to make it with most of us.
Electrics have a high draw when sitting with either heat or air conditioning going, meaning not the answer for long battery life in most cities most of the time. Imagine running a 5 hp AC motor from a battery.
The big cities are the very place where there is no elec, power to spare. Do folks in LA want to choose between their house AC or charging their car for tomorrows commute?
Hybrids do not sell well in Florida because the AC requires the thing run off the engine much of the time. It would be a killer on an electric.
I could go on about energy storage density but I am a poor typist, and really don't want to bore anyone.
Grayfox
US Veteran
First of all Ford is not going to build electric cars. What they are planning is a gasoline/electric hybrid version of the already popular Ford Focus.
Like it or not, hybrids are the wave of the future. Call any Toyota dealer and ask them if they have a Prius in stock. Odds are the answer will be no as they sell as fast as they come in.
Second, Ford is not stopping the building of SUVs. They are only converting one plant that builds them. Last I heard Ford still has four more SUV/truck factories.
Third, the current prototype hybrid Focus which Ford is testing is far better than any other hybrid in current production. Its averaging 40+ MPG and with a little driver training on how to extend fuel milage, it has reached 60 MPG.
Gripe if you want, I think Ford has made a brilliant move.
Like it or not, hybrids are the wave of the future. Call any Toyota dealer and ask them if they have a Prius in stock. Odds are the answer will be no as they sell as fast as they come in.
Second, Ford is not stopping the building of SUVs. They are only converting one plant that builds them. Last I heard Ford still has four more SUV/truck factories.
Third, the current prototype hybrid Focus which Ford is testing is far better than any other hybrid in current production. Its averaging 40+ MPG and with a little driver training on how to extend fuel milage, it has reached 60 MPG.
Gripe if you want, I think Ford has made a brilliant move.
Douglas Haig
Member
Electric cars are nice until you have to pay to replace the batteries. As far as "clean energy" Where does the power come from? Perhaps a beam from Mars? No. It comes from your local power plant. Oh wait, I forgot the windmills.
Uncle Larry
US Veteran
I'm curious as to how quickly the electric car/hybrid technology will advance...and it WILL advance; fer instance, when I was just a "little" younger, all cars had carberators(sp?), spark plugs that had to be changed every 12,000 miles or so, points needed to be adjusted and/or replaced and oil changed every 1,000 miles as well as lubing all of the many and various chassis pieces parts; tires ? how about 12,000 miles to a set...
Only race cars/F1 cars had fuel injection and roller cams..any one remember drum brakes?Today, with the help of some pretty good technology, we don't have all of the old maintainence problems/issues/costs...I'm pretty sure that the so called "problems" with hybrid/battery technology will be solved in a few years and we'll think nothing of going years before having to replace a low cost recycleable battery.
What I'd be interested in would be one of Ford's European Focus' with the diesel engine...60 mpg and great performance too..I'd also like to see a diesel hybrid for urban use; I'd be willing to bet that something like that would be a good seller in New York, Boston, Chicago, Denver or Lost Angeles...
JMVHO & YMMV
Only race cars/F1 cars had fuel injection and roller cams..any one remember drum brakes?Today, with the help of some pretty good technology, we don't have all of the old maintainence problems/issues/costs...I'm pretty sure that the so called "problems" with hybrid/battery technology will be solved in a few years and we'll think nothing of going years before having to replace a low cost recycleable battery.
What I'd be interested in would be one of Ford's European Focus' with the diesel engine...60 mpg and great performance too..I'd also like to see a diesel hybrid for urban use; I'd be willing to bet that something like that would be a good seller in New York, Boston, Chicago, Denver or Lost Angeles...
JMVHO & YMMV
I don't know what Ford is going to build, only what is published. Hopefully the have enough flexibility in the plant design to build whatever can be sold when the plant goes on line.
The Prius, which is available most everywhere and selling at a big discount to MSRP, is supposed to be able to do 40 MPG (doubtful). If you were to follow Toyota's recommendations for hybrid driving which are available on-line you could get a substantial increase in any vehicles MPG. Most people won't because they have a life to lead.
Are there first rate Diesels available in Europe, you bet, swissman has one. N. Pelosi and her wacky environmental friends think that they poison the air. When they finally come here you will see a move to them.
Actually they seem cost effective, hybrids do not. I have seen a couple of diesel-hybrid studies, seems very likely for delivery type trucks especially city type, too expensive for cars in normal driving the diesel is just too efficient under variable load to leave much savings.
Hybrids sales may jump again if gas prices go way up and the big tax deduction is restored. As D. Haig says big costs are involved in replacing hybrid or electric batteries, my brother-in-law is looking at that future and doesn't like what he sees. Used hybrid anyone?
Yes, internal combustion engines are getting better all of the time, the latest ones, like the GM Cad. CTS V-6, are very good.
My plaintive cry is to get government out of the way and let the automakers make and sell cars. Carmakers do not need H. Waxman's help in design.
The Prius, which is available most everywhere and selling at a big discount to MSRP, is supposed to be able to do 40 MPG (doubtful). If you were to follow Toyota's recommendations for hybrid driving which are available on-line you could get a substantial increase in any vehicles MPG. Most people won't because they have a life to lead.
Are there first rate Diesels available in Europe, you bet, swissman has one. N. Pelosi and her wacky environmental friends think that they poison the air. When they finally come here you will see a move to them.
Actually they seem cost effective, hybrids do not. I have seen a couple of diesel-hybrid studies, seems very likely for delivery type trucks especially city type, too expensive for cars in normal driving the diesel is just too efficient under variable load to leave much savings.
Hybrids sales may jump again if gas prices go way up and the big tax deduction is restored. As D. Haig says big costs are involved in replacing hybrid or electric batteries, my brother-in-law is looking at that future and doesn't like what he sees. Used hybrid anyone?
Yes, internal combustion engines are getting better all of the time, the latest ones, like the GM Cad. CTS V-6, are very good.
My plaintive cry is to get government out of the way and let the automakers make and sell cars. Carmakers do not need H. Waxman's help in design.
Uncle Larry
US Veteran
Absolutely, positively on the money!!
reerc
Member
Agreed.
Ford seems to be the one of the BIG THREE doing things right, right now; I suppose us armchair quarterbacks will have to just wait until Monday morning to see how this move plays out.
My own commentaries: my daughters's Focus is over 100K miles, running like a champ; mamma's Navigator is somewhere around 70K miles, and is one of the biggest POS mistakes we've ever made - electrical problems out the ying-yang, its a roll of the dice sometimes, eh? (and yes, it IS out of warranty). Have no problems with the F150/250/350 trucks, their reputations speak for themselves.
Spotteddog
Member
I agree with all the gentlemen!
The trick at this point, is to keep the enviro-weenies out of the engineering process? I recall a conversation that had been inflicted on me once by one at a party. Basically what it boiled down to (and these were his words, I swear!) "it's about the process, not the results". This from someone 55+ with a BS and 2 MBA's?
If this type is allowed to favor emotion and magical thinking over hard nuts and bolts reality, the industry is doomed.
The trick at this point, is to keep the enviro-weenies out of the engineering process? I recall a conversation that had been inflicted on me once by one at a party. Basically what it boiled down to (and these were his words, I swear!) "it's about the process, not the results". This from someone 55+ with a BS and 2 MBA's?
If this type is allowed to favor emotion and magical thinking over hard nuts and bolts reality, the industry is doomed.
