Friend refused on background for a nice 36-1

..... But I think background checks are an insult to a free citizen. The free citizen has to let the government decide if he is a good guy or a bad guy...

The “free citizen” can feel insulted all he wants. You get to decide whether you are a bad guy; most people I know including myself have lived happily so far without any paper trail to that effect.

What any individual thinks of the background checks’ efficacy is immaterial; the current system is the result of laws passed through the regular legislative process by people properly elected, and to my knowledge nobody has successfully challenged its constitutionality on 2nd Amendment or other grounds. So that’s that.
 
A NICS check only deals with the purchaser, not the firearm . . .

You seem confused. My post said nothing at all about the firearm, it just noted that a particular gun shop does a NICS check on the buyer for the seller in a private sale for a $5 fee.

Perhaps you quoted the wrong person and post.
 
Actually, background checks are constitutional. In the 2009 Heller decision, Justice Antonin Scalia found that the Second Amendment guarantees the individual right to possess firearms, but that right is not absolute. Among the limitations is the prohibition of firearms to convicted felons. Hence the need for background checks. Since the late Justice Scalia was one of the greatest conservative legal scholars of the last century, I don’t see this decision being overturned in the foreseeable future.

Also, the presumption of innocence refers to people accused of a crime, not people trying to buy a gun. Running a background check is not an accusation of a crime.
Constitutional doesn't make it right, i.e. slavery was constitutional for 80 some years in this country. After all
constitutional is what nine people say it is, no more no less.
 
Ours were still five years in 2015 when I retired. Was in the middle of my last one when my last day came up. The investigator dropped by to talk to my neighbor about a month later while he and I were having a beer in the front yard. We had a nice chat. He said he'd still get paid for the trip . . .

Muss. lucky you weren't in Fort Smith, Ar, you and
the neighbor would have been breaking the law,
beer must be drank in the back yard so people
passing by on the street can't see you.
 
You posted this:

Colt's Pawn and Gun in Winterville NC will run an NCIS check for a private seller and buyer for a nominal fee of $5.

I don’t know what an “NCIS” check is, and I was trying to make some sense of it. NCIC, NICS, you didn’t hit anything we were talking about. You posted the title of a television crime drama.

Stop being obtuse . . .

You seem confused. My post said nothing at all about the firearm, it just noted that a particular gun shop does a NICS check on the buyer for the seller in a private sale for a $5 fee.

Perhaps you quoted the wrong person and post.
 
Yes,it does. Buying a gun with the intention of making an illegal sale or transfer of it to someone else is a straw purchase. Purchasing a gun and later legally selling or transferring it to someone who IS legally eligible to buy it is not. As long as you don't sell or transfer it to your friend until AFTER they have the situation straightened out and are once more legally eligible to buy it, you are not breaking any laws. Any more than you would be if you sold them some other gun once they are again eligible to purchase it.

You also can't purchase guns for the purpose of reselling them, unless you have an FFL. It sometimes gets a little gray, but generally speaking multiple sales in a short period of time and a short period between purchases and sales of a firearm are going to be construed as operating as a firearms dealer, without a license. The ATF takes a dim view of that.

----

Buying a gun as a gift is also an area that can get a little grey. It really has to be a gift, bought by you with the intention to own until you legally transfer it to someone else and *not at their request*.

But that can be problematic. For example, you and your wife, son, etc, can walk into a store, they could pick out a gun, do the paperwork and you could pay for it, but that will often raise questions / concerns from the FFL and it's not unknown for a dealer to refuse to sell on the basis that it is a straw purchase - whether it really is or not. They just don't want to risk getting stung and losing their FFL.

Of course, on the other hand, if you hand your son or daughter $500 out front and then they shop for their own firearm, that still looks like a straw purchase if the FFL sees the money change hands.

The ATF and the NRA recommend using a gift card purchased from the dealer and then given to the person, who then buys what they want and fills out the paperwork. That's fine, except you can use the same approach for a straw purchase (prohibited individual buys a gift card, gives to the buyer to buy the firearm and the buyer then gives it to them later), so the whole gift card thing is mostly window dressing.

Consequently, if I am buying a firearm as a gift for someone, I just go in alone, buy it, and then present it after the fact as a gift, with no funds changing hands - and no mention that it's being bought as a gift. It's then fully on me to ensure that it is properly a gift, and legally transferred to the person receiving the gift.

The key elements are:

1) you are buying the firearm as a gift to the other person (i.e, not for any form of compensation or reimbursement);

2) you are not doing it at their request;

3) the individual you are giving it to is not a prohibited individual; and

4) you legally transfer it to the other person as a gift after you purchase it and become the legal owner yourself.

Number 4 can get complicated as you can't legally transfer to a person in another state without going through an FFL, and in a growing number of states you can't legally transfer within a state without going through an FFL.
 
You posted this:



I don’t know what an “NCIS” check is, and I was trying to make some sense of it. NCIC, NICS, you didn’t hit anything we were talking about. You posted the title of a television crime drama.

Stop being obtuse . . .

Dyslexia is a thing. I was born with it. The meaning was clear.

On the other hand being a jerk is something you seem to have acquired and apparently practice to maintain proficiency.

Life's too short for that, so lighten up.
 
I mention that because “free citizens” is kind of a term of art amongst the “Sovereign Citizen” movement, and they make both their own driver licenses and their own vehicle licenses. My apologies if that is not your belief system . . .

I will try not to offend anyone. I love how whenever ours rights are restricted someone will mention drivers licenses.

I am done here.
 
So.. as to straw purchases. I have a question: Let's say hypothethically I have a good friend He is a solid citizen with no NCIC issues and he offers to sell me a gun. He tells me the the gun belongs to his friend and he is helping him liquidate his collection. If I were to purchase this from my friend is that a straw purchase? I think it is but would like confirmation.

No, unless *you* are purchasing, on behalf of a third (fourth?) party.

Him *selling* on behalf of the actual owner is equivalent of an
FFL selling guns on consignment.
 
You posted this:



I don’t know what an “NCIS” check is, and I was trying to make some sense of it. NCIC, NICS, you didn’t hit anything we were talking about. You posted the title of a television crime drama.

Stop being obtuse . . .

It's when you ask Kenzi to get you a pumpkin latte,
and do fist bums with LL Kool J.
 
I see you added to your previous post, so..

Please explain how someone can be both "unable to pass the BGC" AND be *legally qualified to make the purchase himself*.
Those seem to be mutually exclusive conditions to me.

My edit is timestamped before your post...:rolleyes:

AFA your proposed mutually exclusive conditions--I never said,
anywhere, that an individual could be in both categories, at once.

What I did say, was that a straw purchase is illegal, whether
the intended recipient is legally entitled to purchase/possess
a firearm, or not. That's the conclusion of the USSC decision
cited.
 
The “free citizen” can feel insulted all he wants. You get to decide whether you are a bad guy; most people I know including myself have lived happily so far without any paper trail to that effect.

What any individual thinks of the background checks’ efficacy is immaterial; the current system is the result of laws passed through the regular legislative process by people properly elected, and to my knowledge nobody has successfully challenged its constitutionality on 2nd Amendment or other grounds. So that’s that.

But, has any background check ever stopped a determined criminal from obtaining a weapon?

Didn't think so.

This system has, however, kept people that really needed a weapon from obtaining one in order to defend themselves from evil.

Feel good, nanny state, legislation that does no good, and actually does harm.
 
My edit is timestamped before your post...:rolleyes:

AFA your proposed mutually exclusive conditions--I never said,
anywhere, that an individual could be in both categories, at once.

What I did say, was that a straw purchase is illegal, whether
the intended recipient is legally entitled to purchase/possess
a firearm, or not. That's the conclusion of the USSC decision
cited.
Yeah you started and finished your edit while I was typing my original reply :)

Better not ever buy a gun with the "intent" to resell it to anybody then. The mind reader cops might come get you and lock you up. :rolleyes:

The point is, if your friend gets his situation straightened out and you then legally sell it to him,
OR if he never gets straightened out and you DON'T sell it to him, how the heck is anyone going to know - much less prove - your original intent was to sell it to him instead of keeping it for yourself?

The ATF isn't a boogeyman living under your bed. Though some people seem to think they have them living in their head. And in some cases, in another, sense maybe they are. :D
 
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In respect to “straw purchases”, some people seem to be overthinking the whole thing quite a bit.

I notice a fixation on the money. It’s immaterial who pays; these gift card shenanigans seem pretty funny; you must have some rather nervous dealers if that actually is a serious suggestion.

In legal terms, the only thing ATF is interested in is that the person who fills out the paperwork, has the required background check done on him, and takes physical possession of the gun, is the actual person who will keep and own the firearm and be legally responsible for it, and is not planning to hand it over to a convicted felon or other prohibited person in the parking lot.

Whether Grandma or a family friend is along and writes the check, or has already paid for the gun when it was ordered (I’ve done both on guns I’ve gifted to others) does not matter at all.
 
In respect to “straw purchases”, some people seem to be overthinking the whole thing quite a bit.

I notice a fixation on the money. It’s immaterial who pays; these gift card shenanigans seem pretty funny; you must have some rather nervous dealers if that actually is a serious suggestion.

In legal terms, the only thing ATF is interested in is that the person who fills out the paperwork, has the required background check done on him, and takes physical possession of the gun, is the actual person who will keep and own the firearm and be legally responsible for it, and is not planning to hand it over to a convicted felon or other prohibited person in the parking lot.

Whether Grandma or a family friend is along and writes the check, or has already paid for the gun when it was ordered (I’ve done both on guns I’ve gifted to others) does not matter at all.
Exactly. Well stated.
 
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