Friend refused on background for a nice 36-1

[Muss Muggins]

Ours were still five years in 2015 when I retired. Was in the middle of my last one when my last day came up. The investigator dropped by to talk to my neighbor about a month later while he and I were having a beer in the front yard. We had a nice chat. He said he'd still get paid for the trip . . .

Periodic reinvestigation. Comes with *every* security clearance,
ever. Without it, the clearance lapses. Used to be five years, the
guys working it currently can advise. No "lifetime clearance".

Only lifetime security clearances are the ones that come in
Cracker Jack boxes, with secret decoder rings.

 

[mbliss57]

So.. as to straw purchases. I have a question: Let's say hypothethically I have a good friend He is a solid citizen with no NCIC issues and he offers to sell me a gun. He tells me the the gun belongs to his friend and he is helping him liquidate his collection. If I were to purchase this from my friend is that a straw purchase? I think it is but would like confirmation.

 

[ACORN]

Straw purchase vs "deferred straw purchase"?

Not a lawyer but I think not.
If he buys it for himself and decides he doesn’t like it, and sells it the next day and the new buyer clears NCIC, the rules were followed. There’s no minimum time you have to own before you sell.

 

[BB57]

This is something that’s always baffled me...

Here in NC, a handgun can be purchased ONLY by those in possession of a CHP (Concealed Handgun Permit) or a PPP (Pistol Purchase Permit). Both are issued by the local Sheriff following a background check. The CHP is valid for 5 years and any number of purchases during that period. The PPP is valid for one gun although multiple permits may be purchased (in my county, up to 3 per a single request).

Purchases from an FFL require the 4473 (obviously) while private purchases only require presentation of a valid drivers license and the relevant permit (interestingly, the law doesn’t appear to require surrender of the PPP although that surely must have been the intention).

So now my issue...

• As many firearms purchases are conducted privately
• As there certainly must me a governmental desire to reduce sales of stolen firearms (which would perhaps lead to reduction in firearms thefts)
• As there is a database of stolen firearms

Why don’t private parties have access to that database? Wouldn’t the possessor of that database like me to be sure I’m not purchasing a stolen firearm????

Colt's Pawn and Gun in Winterville NC will run an NCIS check for a private seller and buyer for a nominal fee of $5. They do it as a public service to ensure that a seller can conduct a private sale and know the buyer is not a prohibited person. They get both my business and my respect. It's a well run, ethically sound, family owned business.

In contrast, Bill's Gun Shop (actually a small chain) in MN charges $50 for the same service.

----

I'd like to see police departments and sheriff's offices provide the same service for free, or for a nominal fee in the $5 range. In addition to ensuring the buyer is not a prohibited individual, it also provides a safe location for the sale to take place.

 

[BB57]

+1, True statement. I do federal background investigations for security clearances, for the past ten years as a federal contract investigator, after a 23 year career as Fed LE (retired). None are lifetime, and none will show on an NICS check. Mine has to be renewed every five years via a re-investigation.

Theoretically. Remember that little fracas in 2013 where a federal employee was just pushing the security clearance paperwork through with no actual interviews? I was one of the 1600 people with a clearance renewed by that pencil whipped process. Given that the guy was caught, I'm certain I was not the only person who raised the issue of not getting a scheduled interview for a 5 year renewal of a security clearance.

My 2018 renewal was *painfully* thorough, re-reviewing *everything*.

 

[Muss Muggins]

A NICS check only deals with the purchaser, not the firearm . . .

Colt's Pawn and Gun in Winterville NC will run an NCIS check for a private seller and buyer for a nominal fee of $5. They do it as a public service to ensure that a seller can conduct a private sale and know the buyer is not a prohibited person. They get both my business and my respect. It's a well run, ethically sound, family owned business.

In contrast, Bill's Gun Shop (actually a small chain) in MN charges $50 for the same service.

----

I'd like to see police departments and sheriff's offices provide the same service for free, or for a nominal fee in the $5 range. In addition to ensuring the buyer is not a prohibited individual, it also provides a safe location for the sale to take place.

 

[Marshal Tom]

I did not tell the entire story in the original post but did ask him about the reason for the denial. He said that the only thing he could think of was that in 1952(?) he had been with some boys who sexually assaulted a girl. He said that he did not do it but that he was given a misdemeanor and the others received a felony conviction. I told him to have CBI check the records and make sure that it was entered correctly.
Mick and a couple of others made comments about a straw purchase. I was an LE for over 36 years and an FFL holder for 9 years. I would not think about doing that, just to be clear. I just might go get it because I don't have a model 36 and that one was a nice one at a good price.

 

[grover99]

this is interesting and may have some impact in the future. "Survivors and family members of victims of the July 2015 mass shooting at Mother Emanuel AME Church in Charleston, South Carolina, can sue the federal government over failures in the national background check system that allowed the shooter to buy a gun, a federal appeals court ruled Friday." If the feds had done their job correctly the shooter should have never gotten a gun

 

[Absalom]

A NICS check only deals with the purchaser, not the firearm . . .

People constantly get NICS and NCIC mixed up, and sometimes even throw NCIS in there if they watch too much TV

 

[BC38]

Straw purchase vs "deferred straw purchase"?

No. As long as you don't sell it to your friend until AFTER he has resolved his issues and qualifies as legal to make the purchase, and you follow all applicable laws. No more than if you buy a gun today and later sell it to a qualified stranger.

 

[BC38]

this is interesting and may have some impact in the future. "Survivors and family members of victims of the July 2015 mass shooting at Mother Emanuel AME Church in Charleston, South Carolina, can sue the federal government over failures in the national background check system that allowed the shooter to buy a gun, a federal appeals court ruled Friday." If the feds had done their job correctly the shooter should have never gotten a gun

"...would never have LEGALLY gotten a gun"
In this case the shooter got a gun through legal channels, but in tens of thousands of murder cases the killer got a gun outside of legal channels.

 

[Steve912]

No. As long as you don't sell it to your friend until AFTER he has resolved his issues and qualifies as legal to make the purchase, and you follow all applicable laws. No more than if you buy a gun today and later sell it to a qualified stranger.

If Joe buys it with the intent of transferring it to Bill, who
Joe knows cannot currently pass the check, with the intent of
transferring it to the friend, I'd say Joe's on sketchy ground,
for making a straw purchase and possibly an additional charge...
or two.


Edit: this applies even if the intended recipient is *legally
qualified* to make the purchase, himself.

See US Supreme Court, Abramski vs United States:


SCOTUS Upholds ATF’s Straw Purchase Prohibition -The Firearm Blog

NRA-ILA | Supreme Court Grants BATFE Broad Leeway on "Straw Purchase" Rules in Abramski v. United States


Intent matters, in many things legal.

 

[handejector]

After reading all this, I’m worried that the Junior Ranger badge I was awarded in Death Valley (for chaperoning a group of kids during a ranger talk) isn’t showing up on my background check anymore, either ...

I still have the Lone Ranger Badge and silver bullet that I got with 4 box tops. I just flash the badge and let them hold the silver bullet, and they run me through instantly.


This is not a gun discussion, so we'll go to The Lounge now.

 

[Absalom]

this is interesting and may have some impact in the future. "Survivors and family members of victims ... can sue the federal government over failures in the national background check system that allowed the shooter to buy a gun, a federal appeals court ruled Friday."....

I doubt this will have much of a broader impact, except for closer supervision and accountability for the NICS employees, even if the lawsuit should go anywhere. It appears to hinge on one person at NICS not following mandatory procedures, resulting in a delay that let the sale go through.

 

[BC38]

If Joe buys it with the intent of transferring it to Bill, who
Joe knows cannot currently pass the check, with the intent of
transferring it to the friend, I'd say Joe's on sketchy ground,
for making a straw purchase and possibly an additional charge...
or two.

Intent matters, in many things legal.

Yes,it does. Buying a gun with the intention of making an illegal sale or transfer of it to someone else is a straw purchase. Purchasing a gun and later legally selling or transferring it to someone who IS legally eligible to buy it is not. As long as you don't sell or transfer it to your friend until AFTER they have the situation straightened out and are once more legally eligible to buy it, you are not breaking any laws. Any more than you would be if you sold them some other gun once they are again eligible to purchase it.

 

[ACORN]

When I had my shop, we had a good customer, that had bought many firearms. This is when Pa. had a waiting period while the local and state PDs ran the checks. All was done on paper. One day the old guys application to purchase was nixed by the local PD. We knew the officer in charge and asked what the problem was being we new the guy and sold him many guns before. The officer replied “well it was in 1947 and if you know the guy OK”. He OK’d the sale! Nary a peep from the state. Afterwards we asked the guy what he’d done, and he said that he’d been messing around with another mans woman and the man confronted him a local bar. Somehow he was shot in the shoulder, I can’t remember how. The cops were called and he didn’t want to get the shooter in trouble being he (the shooter)was a family man and a supposed friend. So he refused to file a complaint or testify against the shooter. IDK how that would disqualify you from purchasing or why it all of the sudden popped up, but that’s what happened. Different times I guess.

 

[BC38]

If Joe buys it with the intent of transferring it to Bill, who
Joe knows cannot currently pass the check, with the intent of
transferring it to the friend, I'd say Joe's on sketchy ground,
for making a straw purchase and possibly an additional charge...
or two.


Edit: this applies even if the intended recipient is *legally
qualified* to make the purchase, himself.

See US Supreme Court, Abramski vs United States:


SCOTUS Upholds ATF’s Straw Purchase Prohibition -The Firearm Blog

NRA-ILA | Supreme Court Grants BATFE Broad Leeway on "Straw Purchase" Rules in Abramski v. United States


Intent matters, in many things legal.

I see you added to your previous post, so..

Please explain how someone can be both "unable to pass the BGC" AND be *legally qualified to make the purchase himself*.
Those seem to be mutually exclusive conditions to me.

 

[Sistema1927]

This thread has certainly gone in many different directions, all at once.

Speaking of security clearances, I doubt seriously if there is any easy to find info concerning mine back in the 80's. Reason why is the fact that my son needed a clearance, post 9/11, for his job with Dept of the Army.

They checked me out pretty thoroughly, and one thing that held his clearance up a bit was the fact that I was a dual US/Canadian citizen with a mother who was a UK citizen at the time of my birth. They examined my background pretty thoroughly prior to approving his clearance. He occupied the "leper colony" at his work for better than a year prior to getting his TS.

If I remember correctly, and it could be my memory slipping, my clearance was obtained in less than 2 months, and they didn't really seem to are much about my dual citizen status.

 

[Tom K]

So.. as to straw purchases. I have a question: Let's say hypothethically I have a good friend He is a solid citizen with no NCIC issues and he offers to sell me a gun. He tells me the the gun belongs to his friend and he is helping him liquidate his collection. If I were to purchase this from my friend is that a straw purchase? I think it is but would like confirmation.

No, that sounds like a simple private gun sale. Here in OK there are no requirements for a background check on private sales, but the buyer has to be a state resident with no restrictions on owning guns. Having an intermediary in the transaction doesn't make it a straw sale either, he's just a guy helping out a buddy, but he should be legally "clean" as well.

Your state may have different requirements.

 

[Waldo]

I am not a lawyer and have never been a LEO. But I think background checks are an insult to a free citizen. The free citizen has to let the government decide if he is a good guy or a bad guy. If the government has a reason to think you are dangerous, why are you out on the street? If I wanted to hurt someone and could not get a gun, I would find another way. Suppose I went to jail for getting drunk and killing someone with a knife. After I got out of jail, I could still buy a knife and alcohol but no gun? Yet some guy who has never hurt anyone but got busted with a joint 40 years ago can't buy a single shot shotgun to kill rats in his barn. I hope everyone here realizes that the ultimate goal of any " common sense" gun law or background check or any other firearms restriction is to disarm has many Americans as possible.