frontier with japanese proofs added photos!

horsemarine

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First post and would appreciate any help on a new acquisition. It is a blued DA Frontier,44WCF, 6 inch in the 7600 range. On the left side, at the barrel pivot point are Japanese characters and also on the left, above the trigger are two Japanese characters and the number 28. I have searhed the internet for many hours and have turned up nothing on these markings. I mailed Mr. Jinks this morning but was hoping to learn a little in the interim. Any help would be appreciated.
Roy
 
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First post and would appreciate any help on a new acquisition. It is a blued DA Frontier,44WCF, 6 inch in the 7600 range. On the left side, at the barrel pivot point are Japanese characters and also on the left, above the trigger are two Japanese characters and the number 28. I have searhed the internet for many hours and have turned up nothing on these markings. I mailed Mr. Jinks this morning but was hoping to learn a little in the interim. Any help would be appreciated.
Roy
 
Can you post a good picture of the marks? Someone here should be able to translate them.
I suspect that the marks with the "28" are a date that will translate to 1895.
 
Japanese dates are given as the year of the current Emperors reign.
In this case it would be Emperor Meiji whose reign started in 1867, so the 28th year would be 1895. The first two characters should be the kanji symbols for "Meiji".
Of course, this is all just speculation. They may be something else alltogether.
 
This is Meiji: ??

Seems unlikely to me that if it is a year that the 28 would be in arabic numerals. If you post a pic, I can probably help.
 
Seems unlikely to me that if it is a year that the 28 would be in arabic numerals

You're right. Now that I think about it I don't remember seeing any arabic until the Showa period and then I only remember seeing them on Type 14s. (And the dates also included the month.)
 
I'm tellin' more than I know here, but I *think* I've *heard* *somewhere* that Japan's very strict gun control laws have required registration markings on all cartridge firearms (perhaps an old law -- not sure if anyone other than the state can own firearms now in Japan or not).

I've seen several tip-ups w/ Japanese characters (Kanji?) on them, and *believe* I've heard the markings attributed to that practice.

Jim
 
Kanji
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I'llk give it my best shot, but Onomea will be a better bet.
Anyway, reading right to left (counterclockwise) starting a about 1:00 o'clock.
First two characters are Meiji, next is 2 (ni), fourth character is 9 (ku). I'm not sure of the fifth one, but it could be an earlier form of "toshi" which means year. i.e. the 29th year of the reign of Emperor Meiji. (1896) The last four are "1", "0", "4"(?) and "3". I don't know what 1043 would signify unless it is a property number.

I have no clue what the characters ending in "23" are. I may be able to look them up tomorrow when I get home, but hopefully, Onomea will know.
 
horsemarine:

The markings on the barrel pivot are from the Meji Era (1868-1912). I believe the 29th year of that reign or 1896AD. The markings below the screw are numbers, 3401 and then a character that I cannot read; probably the province where the pistol was registered. Other then the arabic number above the trigger guard, the rest is beyond my ken. Suggest that you go gunboards.com and scroll down to the Firearms of the Rising Sun forum. Lots of folks there that can read this and I am certain that they would love to see your pictures.

Nice example.
 
Intriguing! Meiji 29, yes, 1896, but the character after the nine is not year. (And I would have expected the character "year" to follow if a date.) It looks very similar to the modern character "kei" of keisatsu (police), but is not an exact match. On the other hand, a hundred years ago, characters were not used as precisely as they are now, so it may be a variant. I don't think it is a geographic location tho… That's the first five characters there, reading left to right. My guess is police, or maybe guard, of some sort, is the fifth character. Followed by "one," as the sixth character in the sequence.

The remaining three characters in the first pic I suspect are meant to be read by flipping them, by which I mean I think the perspective in the picture is upside down. I think that based on the way the "three" and the "one" look, because you can sorta see how they would look if they'd been drawn with a brush. If so, the order would be three, four, zero[?!]. Except, I am confused because there is no character for zero in kanji/characters… Maybe what looks like a "zero" is just a symbol, a round "hole" punched in there? Or, maybe the use of Arabic zero was an innovation in the late 19th century, but if so, not one I have come across before… It confuses me. But I guess the series is some sort of registration number.

The two simple characters repeated next to the Arabic 23 are old characters as well. They look like "tsuchi," which means earth, or dirt, except for the two little strokes at the top of each character.... Or, "Turkey," as in the country, but that seems highly improbable. Here I think they must mean something different, but what, I dunno. My guess is that this sequence is also a registration number, or a way of tracking the gun for rework, or something like that.

But, fellas, I really don't know. I am just guessing here. I read Japanese, as in newspapers or books, but I am unfamiliar with old Japanese marked firearms, having never studied them, and don't know the conventions used. I will ask an older Japanese guy I know, a retired admiral, and see what I can turn up.

I'll post again if I can learn more.
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Jim, I looked at an old gun, well pix of a gun, like you mention about a year ago. In that case the Japanese did refer to a prefecture and a registration number. So you heard correctly. Perhaps it was the case that civilian guns were registered that way, but military and police guns were not? (Nowadays, no handguns for civilians, at all, and long guns are very, very, difficult, but not impossible. Surely more trouble than I am willing to put up with tho!
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Thanks, folks, for the great information. I am happy to have access to such a broad knowledge base. The search continues...
Roy
 
Someplace I have a dictionary that shows both modern kanji ideograms and their earlier equilivant. I'll see if I can find it tonight when I get home.
In looking at the two "mystery" marks with the "23", that first one on the left my have a couple of more strokes in it that are lightly punched. (making it a 5 stroke character instead of just 3). In fact it may be meant to be identical to the second one. I don't know if this would tell us anything, but I'm clutching at straws.
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Onomea,your mention of "Turkey" is interesting. Years ago I had a Peabody Martini (Made by Providence Tool Co.) that was chambered in .43 Turkish. What was interesting were the later added Japanese characters naming it a Murata Type 3. It seems Japan bought a bunch of these from Turkey and instead of rebarreling or rechambering them to 11mm Murata, they just renamed the cartridge.
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BTW, Roy, Nice Pictures
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A couple more things to muddy the waters...

Fred Honeycutt says that 786 #3 Frontier Single action revolvers were shipped to Japan in the 1895-96 period. Obviously, Roy's revolver is a .44 DA Frontier, but it seems to have been shipped in the same time frame. It doesn't appear to be part of a large order. The 786 SA's are the last major Japanese purchase from S&W, and these were all converted to .44 Russian from .44 WCF at the request of the Japanese government. Roy's .44 WCF has not been converted.

If I were guessing, I would guess that Roy's revolver was a private purchase (maybe an officer) that was required to be marked by the Japanese authorities.

Buck
 
Again, thanks for all the input. I knew there was a small Japanese contract of Russian but did not know it coincided with this revolvers date. Most interesting! The wait for Mr. Jinks letter will be excruciating.

Roy
 
We're all awaiting the letter from Roy Jinks.
Keep us informed. As of Oct 21st, Roy said it was taking 14 to 16 weeks for him to get a letter out. So be patient.
Onomea, I found my dictionary, but can't add anything to what you already posted. Here is a scan of the entry for that 5th character:

Kangi.jpg
 
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