frozen smith 357

[illinoimike]

Help.
My friend has an 8-10 year old 357 smith either a 586 or 686. He took it out and fired it once, now the gun is stuck and cylinder will not open or rotate. Basically it's froozen up.
What has caused that? Any suggestions? He's giving me the pistol to look at. I'm pretty mechanical but before I take it apart, I would like to know what may have happened. I'll look it over closely for any bulges or cracks or something obvious first. It may have just gummed up from years of sitting unfired, I don't know yet.
Thanks to anyone with the wisdom to approach this correctly. We have no problem taking the gun to an authorized/experienced smith/wesson repair person but prefer to try ourselves first.

 

[Hobie1]

Hi Mike,
Did the round go off completely? It's possible that the gun locked up if that was a squib round and the bullet is part-way into the forcing cone.
If not, I'm no help at all.
Welcome to a great forum!

Hobie

 

[Smith357]

1. It's possible that the gun has had primer flow back, where the primer expands into the firing pin hole. There was a recall on the early 586/686 line for this issue. A sharp rap with the heel of your hand on the right side of the cylinder with the cylinder release pulled back may pop it open. Be sure to brace the cylinder so it does not fly open and stress the yoke.

2. It could be a squib load, and the bullet is lodged in the gap between the barrel and the cylinder. You should be able to see just a bit of daylight in the cylinder gap. If not you need a stout wooden dowel or brass rod and a small hammer. insert the dowel or rod down the barrel and tap the bullet back into the cylinder.

3. The ejector rod may have come unscrewed and bound up the cylinder, generally the cylinder will still spin but will not open.

 

[jhde69]

I had this happen to a 586, 8 3/8 bbl friday. I was able to push down hard on the hammer and rotate the cylinder and open the revolver. The revolver would only fire 3 or 4 rounds per cylinder. It locked up for me three times that afternoon. I returned it to the shop for a refund so I to am intersted in any replies you get.

 

[illinoimike]

I haven't seen the gun yet. Will get it tomorrow I think. That will be one thing to look for.
And for those who really can spell, don't hate me too much for misspelling frozen Thanks.

 

[Hobie1]

I haven't seen the gun yet. Will get it tomorrow I think. That will be one thing to look for.
And for those who really can spell, don't hate me too much for misspelling frozen Thanks.

know problem

 

[Smith357]

don't hate me too much for misspelling frozen Thanks.

Fixed it for you.

 

[illinoimike]

Thank you guys, I will look for these issues first. I have a wooden rod (I didn't use the word dowel cause I'm not sure how to spell it) I've never, knock on wood, had a round hang up in the barrel nor a blow back.
I never made light loads, just bought em from a guy I trusted. Now I just buy off the shelf and think about the two reloaders that I never use.

 

[Smith357]

Thank you guys, I will look for these issues first. I have a wooden rod (I didn't use the word dowel cause I'm not sure how to spell it) I've never, knock on wood, had a round hang up in the barrel nor a blow back.
I never made light loads, just bought em from a guy I trusted. Now I just buy off the shelf and think about the two reloaders that I never use.

You will want to ask a few questions before you begin. What kind of ammo was he shooting. Handloads or factory? Were they Uber hot loudenboomers or mouse fart target loads. With super hot loads the problems are most often in the breech face firing pin area with flowback or broken pin, with soft handloads it's most likely a squib round. If he was having troubles with the cylinder opening and it manifested into a lockup chances are it the ejector rod.

 

[illinoimike]

I've always just loved the smith & wesson 357's and always had very good luck with every one of them.
When my buddy told me about his malfunction I got excited at the opportunity to look at it, hold it, put a tool to it and solve the problem. Sorry, but I get almost giddy when I take one apart. I own nothing else that is so well made. You can't help but appreciate and admire the craftsmanship.

 

[illinoimike]

I will ask him all these questions when he gives me the gun but I am most certain, the ammo was store bought and possibly defense loads. He has not fired it or played with it for 8-10 years so I guess his ammo was just as old.

 

[murphydog]

Good points above. Just to add, the ejector rod tightens to the left or counter-clockwise from the front; if it is binding the gun, finger tightening it should allow it to unlatch the cylinder.

 

[illinoimike]

Yes, I've seen that before, I just never knew what would cause it.

 

[lhump1961]

This is a strange anomaly that I have seen lately with some .357 reloads. I have some .357 loads from my Dad along with .38 and .38+P's. The .38's and +P's shoot fine but the .357's (after 6 rounds in a clean gun) caused major problems with my 686. The cylinder opened but it would not close again...the front of the cylinder was binding with the forcing cone! I couldn't for the life of me see what was wrong so I sent it to Smith for a look-see. I was so disappointed in my 686! Has always been a rock solid revolver. While it was gone my son-in-law had the SAME problem with the SAME ammo in his Ruger...seemed to bind it up...although he was able to free it. Meanwhile the 686 (a dash 1 by the way) came back from Smith with the comment "cleaned under the extractor" and nothing else!

I've had the 686 back to the range with factory .357 ammo and it shoots perfectly. I still don't know what caused the failure but it is only with those .357 loads. My Dad is 71 and has been reloading for 40 yrs...his only suggestions was that the power he used might have been very old and somehow caused the failure (not the same power as in the .38's and +P's). I don't have the answer but my point is it might not be the gun! If it has a similar problem mine had is may be that the extractor is jammed against the rear of the frame wedging the cylinder in and you may be able to "gently" force it open. I am NOT suggesting you do this...but if a little encouragement will open it then maybe you can examine it further. I am not an expert and this is only a suggestion.

 

[illinoimike]

Well, for anyone interested. I picked up the gun and sure enough, flow back. The fired casing was stuck in the firing pin hole. As few sharp raps with the palm of my hand and it was free. He was shooting 125 grain magnum shells. The ammo was about 10 years old. I told him just throw it out and buy some newer heavier grain bullets.
Here's a question. The gun is a 686 and serial number is AAB4433.
The yoke that the cylinder fits into is however a completely different number 23273....
Is this normal? Is this a different cylinder than the original? I gotta know, thanks.
I'm probably gonna trade for this 4" 686 but I'm concerned about the numbers not matching.....

 

[c good]

Sounds like the classic problem the early model 686, and 686-1's had with higher pressure, 125 gr., rounds. Primer flow back into the firing pin bushing will lock it up. If there is no "M" overstamp on the frame next to the model/serial number then the modification has not been done. This is still covered by S&W on warranty and can be sent back and retrofit at no charge. Mismatching numbers on these models are not a problem. These are assembly stamps not related to matching parts. HTH c good

 

[kennyb]

the cylinder # is an assembly number and means nothing..if he calls S&W they will send him a slip to mail it them for free...they will fix it for free....this was a big recall that they have dealt with for years...if you open the cylinder and look in the crane area...on many a factory M will stamped there...this means this flow problem has been dealt with...if no M...then the factory has not previously fixed it

 

[c good]

Hee Heee....our posts are 1 minute apart....Great minds think alike. c good

 

[Smith357]

He was shooting 125 grain magnum shells.

The gun is a 686 and serial number is AAB4433.

I'm probably gonna trade for this 4" 686 but I'm concerned about the numbers not matching.....

The 125 grain bullet problem, let me guess they were Federals.

You advise is sound, if he sticks with bullets heavier the 125 grains or non magnum loads the gun "should" shoot just fine. Stay away from federal ammo in that gun. Federal has soft primers. The serial number on the gun tells me that his 686 is an early no dash, S&W is still honoring the recall on these guns for the primer flowback issues. They will replace the firing pin bushing and the firing pin at no charge. They will also cover the shipping both ways it takes them about 3 weeks to turn it.

The number in the yoke is an assembly number used in the factory to keep all the parts straight, the serial # is the AAB# stamped on the grip frame, the 3 letter prefixes started in 1980 with AAA. The gun appears to be 32 years old. Since it's old and broken you should be able to get it cheap.

 

[snowman]

Well, for anyone interested. I picked up the gun and sure enough, flow back. The fired casing was stuck in the firing pin hole. As few sharp raps with the palm of my hand and it was free. He was shooting 125 grain magnum shells. The ammo was about 10 years old. I told him just throw it out and buy some newer heavier grain bullets.

Please don't throw out good ammunition. As you can see from the others' posts, the problem lies with the firing pin bushing in the gun, which Smith will fix at no charge. Then you will be able to fire all the 125gr. ammo you want without a problem. I use them exclusively in my three 686s with no trouble whatsoever. Nothing wrong of course with the standard 158gr. stuff -just that there is nothing wrong with the 125s either. The fact that they are ten years old isn't an issue either, unless they were stored in highly abnormal conditions.

Best wishes,
Andy

 

[UDR2]

Interesting thread. I too had a cylinder lock up a couple of years ago on a 7-round 686 4" that I bought new 5 years ago. Never figured out why it locked up. My gunsmith hit the cylinder with a wood hammer handle and the cylinder popped open. The problem never recurred. I eventually sold the gun because... well... I was an idiot.

But the reason I find this thread so interesting is that several others have had a problem with cylinder lock up. It flies in the face of the myths about the 100% reliability of the revolver vs the semi-auto pistols. - With a semi-auto, 99% of jams can be cured in seconds via the a "tap, rack, Bang" maneuver. But if a cylinder locks up in a time of imminent danger, your screwed. Still, I prefer to carry a revolver... just because....

 

[illinoimike]

How much is a gun like this worth? My friend knows the gun isn't broken and that S&W will do the repair. There are scratched in the fluting of the cylinder that look like someone took a dremel and lightly scratched inside each lug. Maybe they were cleaning it incorrectly. You really can't feel the scratches but boy can you see them. Other than that the gun is pretty clean.

 

[murphydog]

A 4" 686 should be in the $450-500 range, perhaps a little higher if the original box and contents come with the deal, but I would definitely have the modifications done by the factory and confirm it works probably before buying.

 

[illinoimike]

I should take some pics, I sat here and polished the **** out of this thing.
To my surprise (using Flitz) I was able to polish almost all the scratches off. I spent time polishing the entire frame as well. If the previous owner would not have cleaned it like he did, this gun would have been nearly mint. Oh well, if I get it I will keep polishing it. I love shiny.....
Thanks to everyone for the stellar advice. I sounded like a pro when I fixed it.

 

[brucev]

Interesting thread. I too had a cylinder lock up a couple of years ago on a 7-round 686 4" that I bought new 5 years ago. Never figured out why it locked up. My gunsmith hit the cylinder with a wood hammer handle and the cylinder popped open. The problem never recurred. I eventually sold the gun because... well... I was an idiot.

But the reason I find this thread so interesting is that several others have had a problem with cylinder lock up. It flies in the face of the myths about the 100% reliability of the revolver vs the semi-auto pistols. - With a semi-auto, 99% of jams can be cured in seconds via the a "tap, rack, Bang" maneuver. But if a cylinder locks up in a time of imminent danger, your screwed. Still, I prefer to carry a revolver... just because....

Been shooting S&W revolvers since 1980. I owned a number of the 586 revolvers and never had one lock up due to primer flow. But, it was a manufacturing error on the part of S&W, and it did happen, so I always had any 586 I bought modified by S&W to deal with the potential problem. Of course when S&W became aware that there was a problem with primer flow on the 586, they addressed the problem and thus was born the 586-1. Perhaps its not unlike when many semi-auto pistols were produced to be reliable with FMJ ammo, but would commonly not function perfectly with HP ammo. One could have a gunsmith correct the issue and many folks commonly did so, some even before they fired the pistol. Nowadays, the manufacturers all anticipate that their pistols will be used with high-performance ammo... JHP and FMJ, etc., and design their pistols accordingly rather than leaving it up to the customer to make necessary alterations.

 

[H Richard]

And therein lies why S&W's have a "dash #". New guns of all mfg's frequently have new product growing pains. By looking at the S&W (post 57) you can tell if it is a first issue that may nave some unresolved problems, or a subsequent "repaired" version. Now keep in mind that not all "dash #'s" were for fixing problems, most were for engineering changes that improved the product, or reduced manufacturing costs.